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-   -   Poll: Which is more important in your aikido training: "aiki" or "ki"? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13538)

AikiWeb System 11-11-2007 12:30 AM

Poll: Which is more important in your aikido training: "aiki" or "ki"?
 
AikiWeb Poll for the week of November 11, 2007:

Which is more important in your aikido training: "aiki" or "ki"?
  • I don't do aikido
  • "Aiki"
  • "Ki"
Here are the current results.

Dirk Hanss 11-11-2007 12:17 PM

Re: Poll: Which is more important in your aikido training: "aiki" or "ki"?
 
Hmm, very difficult -
Without ki there is no ai-ki and without aiki there is no Way of Aiki, ie no aikido.
But they are both essential to aikido.
probably one can say have to start to develop ki in order to achieve aiki. Then you are following aikido.

Then ki is more important.

But I rather would say, they are both preconditions - not preconditions to attend aikido classes, but preconditions to say, what you are doing really is aikido

Don_Modesto 11-11-2007 02:30 PM

Re: Poll: Which is more important in your aikido training: "aiki" or "ki"?
 
Definitely aiki. The term KI to me is mush the way it's normally used. AIKI is an approachable concept.

Will Prusner 11-12-2007 08:19 AM

Re: Poll: Which is more important in your aikido training: "aiki" or "ki"?
 
To me, this is like this question:

"What do you prefer, eggs or scrambled eggs?"

Where eggs (KI) is the subject, and "scrambling" (AIKI) is what is being done with the subject.

To get "Scrambled eggs" (AIKIDO) you need both (equal importance), eggs (KI), and someone (DO) to scramble (AIKI). Lacking either one, the outcome isn't "Scrambled eggs". Not a bad thing, just a different thing. I suppose that one could ask whether I like to experience an egg in it's natural state (as a potential animal), or as a food (martial art), which is a much broader question, and has more to do with how I personally view the proper use of a potential resource. For the sake of this discussion, however, I assume that KI is being referred to as in martial application.

That being said, and it being morning, I'll take some Aikido with salt, pepper, hot sauce and a side of bacon...

Ron Tisdale 11-12-2007 10:30 AM

Re: Poll: Which is more important in your aikido training: "aiki" or "ki"?
 
This is going to sound stupid...but how do I actually vote in the poll?

I vote for aiki...and I've explained my reasons in the past.

Best,
Ron

akiy 11-12-2007 10:33 AM

Re: Poll: Which is more important in your aikido training: "aiki" or "ki"?
 
Hi Ron,

This thread refers to the weekly AikiWeb poll at the top right of the AikiWeb home page.

Hope that helps,

-- Jun

Ron Tisdale 11-12-2007 10:47 AM

Re: Poll: Which is more important in your aikido training: "aiki" or "ki"?
 
Kool! Thanks, and hope all is well.

Best,
Ron

DH 11-12-2007 03:20 PM

Re: Poll: Which is more important in your aikido training: "aiki" or "ki"?
 
There is no separation. They go hand n hand. Thinking of Aiki as a collection of principles or a technical approach, and all these years of language that go along with it is so low level it is of little consequence or meaning.
Aiki is a trained state of being. Developing and maintaining In/yo ho in you will lead to a powerful state of equilibrium. A state that will increasingly be maintained with little thought on your part. And this is a balance of ki or chi on a very physical level in many ways. The more competent you become at maintaining this state the more disrupitve your state of "being stable" will be on contact. And this is where "Aiki" is created.
The easiest way to make it digestable is to consider doing Aikido with a small and weak person. They would be pouring their efforts into you with little ability to disrupt your balance. Since it would take little effort to control them, you would be freeing up more of your senses to "listen" and deal with their changing forces. Thus your ability to freely manipulate them would just be natural without giving much thought to "doing" something to or with them. They on the other hand would be non-plussed at your ability to move them around like magic.
Thinking to blend and how to "make an aiki connection" and concentrating on THEM... is everything that is wrong with aikido. It's full speed...in the wrong direction.
So, my answer to the poll is yes to all three
Aiki is important
Ki is important
and Yes ...I don't do Aikido any more.

G DiPierro 11-12-2007 05:24 PM

Re: Poll: Which is more important in your aikido training: "aiki" or "ki"?
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 193757)
Since it would take little effort to control them, you would be freeing up more of your senses to "listen" and deal with their changing forces. Thus your ability to freely manipulate them would just be natural without giving much thought to "doing" something to or with them.
...
Thinking to blend and how to "make an aiki connection" and concentrating on THEM... is everything that is wrong with aikido.

Sometimes you seem to be saying contradictory things. Aren't you concentrating on them by "listening" and dealing with their changing forces? Of course when it becomes habitual you don't have to consciously think about it anymore, but while learning how to do this it seems to me that you have to think about them quite a bit, particularly in terms of what they are doing to you and how it feels to have them do it compared to how you want it to feel.

I'd say most people in aikido miss the mark not by concentrating on the other person too much but by not doing it enough. Instead, they just attempt to act out a technique that they have pictured in their mind, and to the extent that the other person does not go along willingly with this idea, they try to force him to do so through various methods that I wouldn't consider aikido. To me, aiki requires moving with another person, and this means letting the other person go where he wants rather than fighting force with force. Of course there is more to it than that but this is a good starting place for most people.

Nikopol 11-12-2007 07:49 PM

Re: Poll: Which is more important in your aikido training: "aiki" or "ki"?
 
Quote:

Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: (Post 193767)
Sometimes you seem to be saying contradictory things. Aren't you concentrating on them by "listening" and dealing with their changing forces? Of course when it becomes habitual you don't have to consciously think about it anymore, but while learning how to do this it seems to me that you have to think about them quite a bit, particularly in terms of what they are doing to you and how it feels to have them do it compared to how you want it to feel.

I'd say most people in aikido miss the mark not by concentrating on the other person too much but by not doing it enough. Instead, they just attempt to act out a technique that they have pictured in their mind, and to the extent that the other person does not go along willingly with this idea, they try to force him to do so through various methods that I wouldn't consider aikido. To me, aiki requires moving with another person, and this means letting the other person go where he wants rather than fighting force with force. Of course there is more to it than that but this is a good starting place for most people.

Well said.

gregstec 11-13-2007 01:15 PM

Re: Poll: Which is more important in your aikido training: "aiki" or "ki"?
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 193757)
There is no separation. They go hand n hand...

I am with Dan on this. To me the question does not make since the correct answer is in both choices.

I like the egg analogy as well...made me hungry though...

Greg Steckel

kironin 11-13-2007 02:26 PM

Re: Poll: Which is more important in your aikido training: "aiki" or "ki"?
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 193757)
There is no separation.
...
Thinking to blend and how to "make an aiki connection" and concentrating on THEM... is everything that is wrong with aikido. It's full speed...in the wrong direction.

Which is why I voted Ki.

What you are saying put in other words is pretty much what Tohei Sensei has been saying for nearly 50 years.

Aiki is an aspect of the phenomena labeled Ki.

Developing Ki really means exercises for developing your attention/awareness to the natural principles of your mind and body being inseparable and exploiting that.

Matt Reischer 11-19-2007 05:20 PM

Re: Poll: Which is more important in your aikido training: "aiki" or "ki"?
 
Quote:

Vincent Nikopol wrote: (Post 193774)
Well said.

yes.


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