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-   -   Kubi Nage??? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13306)

Shizentota 09-25-2007 10:13 AM

Kubi Nage???
 
Please if someone can tell me how to perform this technique, because Yudo Kubi nage seem to be different from the aiki way of applying it.

I founded this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auw3aiOcbpI

alexevon 09-25-2007 01:53 PM

Re: Kubi Nage???
 
That video is so embarrasing... No wonder Aikido has a bad name.
When we do this technique, uke is coming in at full speed and is usually airborne by the time he/she hits the mats.

This video somewhat looks like a Sumi otoshi, as opposed to a kubi nage.

Don_Modesto 09-25-2007 01:57 PM

Re: Kubi Nage???
 
Quote:

Manuel Aldunate wrote: (Post 190515)
Please if someone can tell me how to perform this technique, because Yudo Kubi nage seem to be different from the aiki way of applying it.

I founded this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auw3aiOcbpI

KUBI NAGE? Nasty. I know a technique different from the one in the video by this name. Basically, you grab UKE's head and twist. It sure looks like a killing technique to me.

Rick Stickles does one on his Expo (aikidojournal.com) demonstration. You also see it discussed in Crane and Crane's Aikido in Training, book and Lost Technique vid (maybe lost because it's pretty dangerous.)

Quote:

Alex Evonosky wrote: (Post 190526)
That video is so embarrasing... No wonder Aikido has a bad name.
When we do this technique, uke is coming in at full speed and is usually airborne by the time he/she hits the mats.

What was so bad? It was teaching speed.

Quote:

This video somewhat looks like a Sumi otoshi, as opposed to a kubi nage.
I think of SUMI OTOSHI as going outside of UKE. Going inside like this I would call KOKYU NAGE. But then, all our organizations have their own names for these things, don't they.

Shizentota 09-25-2007 02:59 PM

Re: Kubi Nage???
 
It seems that nobody knows the exactly way to perform it, please fell free to post any comments, to me, this video I posted, doesnt look like sumiotoshi (CORNER DROP) It looks more like a kokiunage

Ketsan 09-25-2007 03:59 PM

Re: Kubi Nage???
 
Quote:

Manuel Aldunate wrote: (Post 190536)
It seems that nobody knows the exactly way to perform it, please fell free to post any comments, to me, this video I posted, doesnt look like sumiotoshi (CORNER DROP) It looks more like a kokiunage

Kubi nage? Hmm start with yokomen uchi enter in tsugi ashi, take ukes head/neck with both hands, turn to face the same direction as uke and drop onto one knee while cutting kashima stylee (we don't have pulling in aikido :p ) ukes head into your center.

Ketsan 09-25-2007 04:07 PM

Re: Kubi Nage???
 
Actually think the hands thing might be wrong. I've seen two ways. One where you meet yokomen uchi with one hand and then wrap the other hand around the back of ukes head/neck as you turn then then cut and drop.
The other you somehow take it with both hands and then cut and drop.

Shizentota 09-25-2007 04:57 PM

Re: Kubi Nage???
 
Thank alex....
Do you have any picture of this, I will be easy for us to get the idea.:cool:

Peter Goldsbury 09-25-2007 05:04 PM

Re: Kubi Nage???
 
Quote:

Manuel Aldunate wrote: (Post 190515)
Please if someone can tell me how to perform this technique, because Yudo Kubi nage seem to be different from the aiki way of applying it.

I founded this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auw3aiOcbpI

One shihan who used to do kubi-nage (kubi means neck, by the way, not head) was the late Morihiro Saito. At a seminar I attended he was doing it from kata-dori. He broke uke's balance, took the head, now in range of atemi, and twisted the neck (which is why it is dangerous). Hence the name. You can do at least a hint of this even in the very basic irimi-nage.

Of course there are a number of other waza where you can take the head, but do not necessarily twist the neck. The waza shown in the video is one of them.

aikidoc 09-25-2007 05:06 PM

Re: Kubi Nage???
 
I believe the Crane's refer to the head throws as men nage-been a long time since I looked at the video.

Peter Goldsbury 09-25-2007 06:21 PM

Re: Kubi Nage???
 
Quote:

John Riggs wrote: (Post 190552)
I believe the Crane's refer to the head throws as men nage-been a long time since I looked at the video.

Men basically means 'face' and many of the Japanese compounds have the added meaning of what one does with the face: the look or expression. On p.233 on the book, Crane explains that it means 'head throw', but this is a very 'local' meaning, in my opinion.

We do the whole range of 'men-nage' waza illustrated on pp.238-241 of Cranes' book, but here they have always been called kubi-nage, because the neck is twisted.

The main term for head in Japanese is atama, also read as TO. As far as I know, the term does not appear in any terms for aikido waza.

Ketsan 09-25-2007 06:48 PM

Re: Kubi Nage???
 
Quote:

Manuel Aldunate wrote: (Post 190549)
Thank alex....
Do you have any picture of this, I will be easy for us to get the idea.:cool:

Unfortunately not. I've had a mooch around the net and I can only find the judo version, which is quite a bit different from what I've been taught.

Marc Abrams 09-25-2007 07:46 PM

Re: Kubi Nage???
 
I have less of a concern about the technique and more of a concern about what the uke was doing. The uke reminded me of scenes of "Night of the Living Dead." I would not be happy if one of my students said that I taught him/her how to attack like that.

Marc Abrams

ChrisHein 09-25-2007 11:19 PM

Re: Kubi Nage???
 
James is awesome. That goes in my book as best attack of the year.

Shizentota 09-25-2007 11:40 PM

Re: Kubi Nage???
 
Thanks all for posting, I saw the Judo version, but to me there is no aiki in that, thanks all anyways this is my first time posting here , and I am very happy to have all of your answers :)

Demetrio Cereijo 09-26-2007 06:08 AM

Re: Kubi Nage???
 
Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: (Post 190551)
One shihan who used to do kubi-nage (kubi means neck, by the way, not head) was the late Morihiro Saito. At a seminar I attended he was doing it from kata-dori. He broke uke's balance, took the head, now in range of atemi, and twisted the neck (which is why it is dangerous). Hence the name.
...

Something like this, but here is called kumi nage (probably a typo)

Peter Goldsbury 09-26-2007 06:23 AM

Re: Kubi Nage???
 
Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: (Post 190591)
Something like this, but here is called kumi nage (probably a typo)

Sorry, It was impossible to download the video on to my computer.

Shizentota 09-26-2007 09:04 AM

Re: Kubi Nage???
 
You can found it here http://www.iwamaivanovo.ru

The attack here is Ryo mune dori,
which is the way to perform it when the attack is

-Shomenuchi
-Ushiro ryote dori

Gracias Demetrio:)

Ketsan 09-26-2007 09:21 AM

Re: Kubi Nage???
 
Quote:

Manuel Aldunate wrote: (Post 190616)
You can found it here http://www.iwamaivanovo.ru

The attack here is Ryo mune dori,
which is the way to perform it when the attack is

-Shomenuchi
-Ushiro ryote dori

Gracias Demetrio:)

Hmm. I've done that before in Ju-jitsu but never in Aikido. The kubi nage I've been shown is pretty much like a drop ippon seoi nage only you're holding uke's head rather than their arm.

Demetrio Cereijo 09-26-2007 02:22 PM

Re: Kubi Nage???
 
Quote:

Peter Goldsbury wrote:
Sorry, It was impossible to download the video on to my computer.

I've just uploaded to youtube the clip.

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-80sMpTI5A

Quote:

Manuel Aldunate wrote:
The attack here is Ryo mune dori

I think is an attempt to a standing gyaku-juji-jime.

As been said before, there are more in Crane's books/video

gregg block 10-15-2007 09:18 AM

Re: Kubi Nage???
 
What a ridiculous attack.

Flintstone 10-15-2007 12:07 PM

Re: Kubi Nage???
 
Quote:

Gregg Block wrote: (Post 191708)
What a ridiculous attack.

Really?

Amir Krause 10-16-2007 02:48 AM

Re: Kubi Nage???
 
Quote:

Gregg Block wrote: (Post 191708)
What a ridiculous attack.

While I must admit to finding these videos (I checked a couple of other techniques too) unimpressive, from my technical point of view looking at Tori (the technique performer). Though, without feeling the technique on me, I am not sure if my problem stems from real technical deficencies or only from style differences which make me think some essential components are missing from the techniques (to the point they would not work had I tried to practice them this way in the dojo).

Still, I do not get your problem with the attack. The attack is clearly simbolic by intention. In fact, it seemed so symbolic I think it is hard to perform techniques on it.

These videos were labeled as a basic level teaching aid. And at that level, a fast and realistic attack would hinder the learning of the techniques, and derail attention from it.

Amir

Beard of Chuck Norris 10-16-2007 09:19 AM

Re: Kubi Nage???
 
Quote:

Manuel Aldunate wrote: (Post 190515)
Please if someone can tell me how to perform this technique, because Yudo Kubi nage seem to be different from the aiki way of applying it.

I founded this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auw3aiOcbpI

I'm sure the teacher appeared on some "Expert Village" kendo videos too. But... even a lowly ikkyu such as myself could see a lot of stuff you shouldn't pay attention to. It was bad kendo unfortunately.

this aikido video, a little weird that the attack is a zombie style one but i guess we can forgive that for the purposes of teaching.

We do something very similar (in terms of technique) although we relate it to ude furi. I'm not too down with the aiki terminology but there could be a few different names for that technique.
e.g. omote tenkan... ude oroshi, aiki nage, ude nage, ?kubi nage? Each organisation might call it something different, you'd probably have to feel it to decide.

I doubt i'd call it a neck throw though but i'm still a beginner. Certainly doesn't look like neck throws i've seen, but i doubt i've seen em all! :)

peace and love

Jo.

Ecosamurai 10-18-2007 07:15 AM

Re: Kubi Nage???
 
Quote:

Jo Duncan wrote: (Post 191764)
I'm sure the teacher appeared on some "Expert Village" kendo videos too. But... even a lowly ikkyu such as myself could see a lot of stuff you shouldn't pay attention to. It was bad kendo unfortunately.

this aikido video, a little weird that the attack is a zombie style one but i guess we can forgive that for the purposes of teaching.

We do something very similar (in terms of technique) although we relate it to ude furi. I'm not too down with the aiki terminology but there could be a few different names for that technique.
e.g. omote tenkan... ude oroshi, aiki nage, ude nage, ?kubi nage? Each organisation might call it something different, you'd probably have to feel it to decide.

I doubt i'd call it a neck throw though but i'm still a beginner. Certainly doesn't look like neck throws i've seen, but i doubt i've seen em all! :)

peace and love

Jo.

We do have kubinage on our syllabus Jo, think from ikkyu and above if my memory serves might be shodan though. Doesn't look like the vid though. Ours usually involves a hand on the neck, it depends upon the entry and attack but often it can involve pushing them back while holding the neck (think a bit like shomen-ate to the throat but not quite), variations include manipulating the neck by controlling the chin which might look more like the vid. Without the zombie attacking though :eek:

Mike

Paul Sanderson-Cimino 10-18-2007 10:30 AM

Re: Kubi Nage???
 
I've seen something vaguely similar, called kubi-ate kokyunage. So a neck-striking throw. E.g., from yokomenchi, nage steps inside uke's strike radius and counterstrikes the neck to throw. No head-twisting, though. I remember the oddest thing was that nage's rotation isn't the way you'd expect...like. Let's see. From gyaku hanmi (left foot forward), nage would step in with the left foot, rotate clockwise on the balls of their feet, and then strike with the right hand.

(My recollection is a bit fuzzy.)


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