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John Matsushima 09-24-2007 12:22 PM

Shihonage roll-out
 
Is there a way to prevent uke from rolling out of a shihonage pin? How did shihonage become a pinning technique anyway? Maybe it isn't meant to be a pinning technique?

Marie Noelle Fequiere 09-24-2007 12:44 PM

Re: Shihonage roll-out
 
Isn't that your instructor's job to answer that?

ChrisHein 09-24-2007 12:54 PM

Re: Shihonage roll-out
 
I've never seen anyone roll out of a shihonage pin, and our guys go pretty hard.

I've seen people roll out before the pin. To fix that nage just needs to step back when he feels uke turning.

John Matsushima 09-24-2007 12:58 PM

Re: Shihonage roll-out
 
"Isn't that your instructor's job to answer that?"

Well, then if we all took that route, then there wouldn't be any AIKIWEB, would there? I am posting my question here to learn from the experiences of others. NEXT!

Ron Tisdale 09-24-2007 01:06 PM

Re: Shihonage roll-out
 
I don't know if there is a way to prevent a skilled grappler from finding a way to roll out of anything! ;)

Two things that can help:

1) give uke a concussion when you slam their head into the mat. ;) Not easy to do everytime, especially since new partners will become rare rather quickly, old partners will tend to run when they see you coming, and it can be difficult to get that level of control over strong, resisting partners who want to throw YOU on YOUR head.

2) When you pin, make use of the fourth control pressure point to get uke to keep their hips up off the mat. If their weight is limited to their head/shoulders and toes, it makes it hard for them to do much. But pain compliance is risky as a primary means of accomplishing pretty much anything. There are some structural componants to this type of control, but I'd feel silly trying to discuss it in an intelligent way.

Best,
Ron

Basia Halliop 09-24-2007 01:13 PM

Re: Shihonage roll-out
 
If they do manage to roll out, you may find you're decently set up for some kind of kotegaeshi variation.

gdandscompserv 09-24-2007 01:17 PM

Re: Shihonage roll-out
 
Quote:

John Matsushima wrote: (Post 190411)
"Isn't that your instructor's job to answer that?"

Well, then if we all took that route, then there wouldn't be any AIKIWEB, would there? I am posting my question here to learn from the experiences of others. NEXT!

Me thinks Marie hasn't had her coffee this morning.:D

gdandscompserv 09-24-2007 01:30 PM

Re: Shihonage roll-out
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote: (Post 190412)
I don't know if there is a way to prevent a skilled grappler from finding a way to roll out of anything! ;)

Or a skilled aikidoist for that matter.;)

odudog 09-24-2007 02:13 PM

Re: Shihonage roll-out
 
I'd say apply more pain to the pinned arm. There are several ways of doing this and you need to investigate what is missing in your version. Secondly, if your uke is so flexiable and can tolerate the pain, then a back up is to use your knee in the arm pit/rib area to help pin the person down.

mathewjgano 09-24-2007 02:15 PM

Re: Shihonage roll-out
 
Quote:

John Matsushima wrote: (Post 190402)
Maybe it isn't meant to be a pinning technique?

I've been pinned pretty well by it...not that I'm necessarily a good measure of when someone is doing it correctly though. One method I've experienced was that when a really good pin has been done on me, my hips MUST go up in order to relieve some of the tension. I've also heard that using their arm (from pinned position) to cut across their head can help too. I tend to use my free arm to continue the elbow along as if I were going to pin it to the ground too, though being careful not to tear muscles (some folks are more limber than others).
Still...it's hard to give pointers by script and I'd agree your sensei or sempai might be able to see things more clearly. Ultimately, in my limited experience, if a pin isn't working, you don't have them over-extended enough somewhere.
Take care,
Matt

Marie Noelle Fequiere 09-24-2007 02:19 PM

Re: Shihonage roll-out
 
Quote:

Ricky Wood wrote: (Post 190415)
Me thinks Marie hasn't had her coffee this morning.:D

Was my post aggressive? I certainly did - and still do not - think so. Is it forbidden to be curious?
Anyway, I apologize for thinking that all instructors are like mine, who answers questions. I may seek more opinions on the A´kiweb latter, but my primary source of information is Sensei.
Again, I am sorry I have a cooperative instructor.:confused:

Nick P. 09-24-2007 05:11 PM

Re: Shihonage roll-out
 
In my experience, there are two broad types of shiho nage; the type that throws you down, and the type that throws you away.

By down, I mean right-the-explitive-down, to where your heel is. Round, but down.
By away, I mean towards the wall. Round, but away.

The former, when done well, goes straight into a pin.
The latter, less so.

My $0.02 CDN, now worth the same as US$.

Aikibu 09-25-2007 01:00 AM

Re: Shihonage roll-out
 
I found a knee in the solar plexus works well on occasion. You kind of have to stay connected through out the entire technique in order to "feel" for an attempt to roll out of the "pin"

We're taught to always Roll out of the pin if the Nage does not stay connected and continue the attack. :)

William Hazen

darin 09-25-2007 03:26 AM

Re: Shihonage roll-out
 
When uke is on his back sit down sit on his chest/ribs then push his elbow towards his temple while pulling sideways in the shihonage lock.

Ron Tisdale 09-25-2007 08:33 AM

Re: Shihonage roll-out
 
That last one is a good one...I actually just learned that method from the guys at the Itten dojo near Harrisburg. Budd can elaborate on it.

The other thing to keep in mind as uke is that if the throw into the pin is competant, shite is in a dominant position to strike, knee, deploy a weapon, etc. If uke chooses to scramble at that point, uke is already working at a serious disadvantage, and it's likely that you will have shite with a knee on your chest raining down blows. Which blows...if you get what I mean...

:D Best,
Ron

aikispike 09-25-2007 10:34 AM

Re: Shihonage roll-out
 
Quote:

John Matsushima wrote: (Post 190402)
Is there a way to prevent uke from rolling out of a shihonage pin? How did shihonage become a pinning technique anyway? Maybe it isn't meant to be a pinning technique?

I find two opportunities for escape in shihonage. First after shite/tori has shifted direction and is attempting to lock uke before throwing. The second is after the throw while on the ground at the pin.

I believe that you refer to the latter.

I find that what is important is that you setup the pin while uke is being thrown. That is, you need to extend your wrist so that the wrist and forearm are straight rather then have your wrist back. and you need to do this before uke is on the ground.

When uke is on the ground, with your wrist straight inline with your forearm, her elbow should be extended enough over her head that it is close to the mat. If her elbow is up hight and free next to her head she will be comfortable and happy and able to escape. With her elbow extended it will lock her shoulder better and somewhat suck in comfort, and she will be less inclined to attempt an escape. At the same time, your leg that is close to her should tight up against her side to prevent her from rolling. (If uke is really really flexible, forget the pin and atemi to the head.)

hope that makes sense. In general i dont attempt explaining techniques in email any more... its too hard to explain.

Spike

John Matsushima 09-25-2007 10:38 AM

Re: Shihonage roll-out
 
Thank you everyone for your input. I have considered the option of sitting on uke, but it seems to be a dangerous place to be. A person could then roll me over, or hook my neck with thier leg. If I lean forward to avoid this, then I am vulnerable to his other hand.

I agree that as uke rolls out, he does place himself in a very vulnerable position.

I'll have to keep working on it. Thanks again.

John

Bronson 09-25-2007 10:42 AM

Re: Shihonage roll-out
 
Quote:

Michael Kimeda wrote: (Post 190511)
I find that what is important is that you setup the pin while uke is being thrown.

Awww, Spike beat me to it :D

The best pins I've ever experienced were being applied well before uke hit the ground.

Bronson

Ron Tisdale 09-26-2007 08:29 AM

Re: Shihonage roll-out
 
Agreed...and I've heard a 7th dan say much the same thing.

"Ron-san, you should already be pinning!"

Yikes,
Ron ;)

philippe willaume 09-26-2007 12:44 PM

Re: Shihonage roll-out
 
Hello
I would say the "proper" pin from shiho nague is not very reliable.
But we need to bear in mind that the shiho nague version we partice in training is relatively nice compare to the mean version of it. Uke does not have to wory so much about something being broken on him. So that need to be taken in considartion when you speak of escape.

Even though I thing the nice version is good enough to buy time to strike or to mount or to get a knee on the belly and beat him up or to have a little head start to get away
If all goes well it can stick but it is not likely on a resisting opponent.

Putting koshi in it and doing a less comfortable version than the "standard one" one will increase drastically your chance of pinning (if nothing go pop in the process) but the pin will be more like an ikkio (knee on the elbow version), nikkio and so on or kotegeishi depending how he lands.
phil

aikispike 09-26-2007 04:58 PM

Re: Shihonage roll-out
 
Quote:

Philippe Willaume wrote: (Post 190646)
Hello
I would say the "proper" pin from shiho nague is not very reliable.

phil

Mine works reliably.

philippe willaume 09-27-2007 06:00 AM

Re: Shihonage roll-out
 
If by reliably you mean control him long enough to hit him or get a good head start. we do a agree.
If you mean getting someone stuck so that he can not escape when he actively try, like the pin you have you have with nikkio sankio pin (and some ikkio variations). I would say that you are not doing the standard pin.
That is pinning via the arm alone and that leaves him option to escape by the hips.

Even if you arch his spine, via the arm pin, and from the way you describe it we are using the same pin. He end up in a position no so different from "umpa", a bjjer or a wrestler can use that to get away.
But may be that is probably what you meant by uke being flexible.

You need at least a knee (or sitting) on the chest belly to prevent him to use his hips meaningfully and that position will help to keep the elbow down close to head an push the forearm outside. But we are quite far from the standard pin.

phil

Ron Tisdale 09-27-2007 09:45 AM

Re: Shihonage roll-out
 
Just use the knee on the elbow.

Best,
Ron

aikispike 09-27-2007 11:52 AM

Re: Shihonage roll-out
 
Quote:

Philippe Willaume wrote: (Post 190696)
I would say that you are not doing the standard pin.
That is pinning via the arm alone and that leaves him option to escape by the hips.

phil

I dont know how standard my pin is, but I definitely dont only use the arm. I am using the arm, my weight, and my legs.

I pin the arm using a spiral movement away from uke's shoulder. (some people use a circular movement which i believe is less effective). At the end of the pin uke's hand is usually bent past the shoulder.

At the same time I am using the leg that is next to uke to prevent him from rolling. (because I am yoshinakan, my inside knee is up). The leg is helping the arm pin and keeping uke's inside shoulder pinned to the mat. Since most of my weight is on the arm and shoulder its hard to roll out.

The pin is really quite painful, and uke usually doesnt want to try rolling out.

If uke is stupidly flexible (i hate flexible people... its jealousy), the shoulder doesnt really pin, the leg doesnt help enough and uke can usually struggle out. But that is where atemi come is :)

philippe willaume 09-27-2007 12:51 PM

Re: Shihonage roll-out
 
Quote:

Michael Kimeda wrote: (Post 190728)
I dont know how standard my pin is, but I definitely dont only use the arm. I am using the arm, my weight, and my legs.

I pin the arm using a spiral movement away from uke's shoulder. (some people use a circular movement which i believe is less effective). At the end of the pin uke's hand is usually bent past the shoulder.

At the same time I am using the leg that is next to uke to prevent him from rolling. (because I am yoshinakan, my inside knee is up). The leg is helping the arm pin and keeping uke's inside shoulder pinned to the mat. Since most of my weight is on the arm and shoulder its hard to roll out.

The pin is really quite painful, and uke usually doesnt want to try rolling out.

If uke is stupidly flexible (i hate flexible people... its jealousy), the shoulder doesnt really pin, the leg doesnt help enough and uke can usually struggle out. But that is where atemi come is :)

What I call the standard pin is the same as you describe but without the leg. I call it standard because from the seminar I attend (multi style) this is the most common.
that being said i agree with what you said though BJJers and wretsler seem to have a fair amount of stupidly flexible peoles.
:-)


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