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-   -   Systema SpetsNaz - No Contact Combat Video (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13269)

CitoMaramba 09-20-2007 06:32 AM

Systema SpetsNaz - No Contact Combat Video
 
http://www.systemaspetsnaz.com/Video...t_Combat_2.wmv

http://www.systemaspetsnaz.com/Video...t_Combat_3.wmv

More here:

http://www.systemaspetsnaz.com/systema_video_clips.htm

What do you think? Bullshido or not?

DH 09-20-2007 07:13 AM

Re: Systema SpetsNaz - No Contact Combat Video
 
How is it any different then any Aikido video put up here? Never look at the defender when judging an art. Just about every martial art demo is a masterwork of deception. Fundemental dishonesty. Martial shtick presupposes attack and defense in a styles own set movements. Always watch the Uke-never the defender. Who would attack anyone that way or respond to a defense that way.
1.Where are their feet at the time of attack?
2.What is his other hand doing?
3.Why is he so extended?
4. What is his body setting up to do as a follow up counter to the defense?
5. Why is he not countering and resisting while still moving in a balanced state?
6. Who can "lead" someone -other than a trained monkey-out of their own (supposed well trained) center like that?
7. Wouldn't your goal be to train folks -NOT- to lose themselves that way and NOT to succumb to your own arts power?Then have them go try your arts power on unwilling players of other arts?
Never................settle for doing your shtick only on those who train with you, or even others in the same art. Go try it on someone who wants to make a mockery of all you know.
After a few years I force everyone who has trained with me to go do other things, Judo, MMA , BJJ, CMA, Boxing etc. At least a few of them here and there. Even if they have prior experience. It is a mandate or I'll show you the door. I don't want to be the source of anyone's "Budo", or watch them default to some lame Ukemi. I'm just not interested. Once men go out and get knocked around, or successively knock others around, they tend to form their own opinions of these so called " arts" and sort out their own questions.
So, after the long way around, I guess I'd say this video is yet another guy...being a good uke. Wanna bet he's a student of the art, preconditioned to respond that way? Were you on your feet and balanced with good intent your body will never be compromised that way. Further still, who would train anyone, or allow anyone they are responsible for to respond that way to a defense? I would think you'd want anyone associated with you to be able to bring it and to respond to a plethora of defensive tactics and keep bringin it.

Timothy WK 09-20-2007 07:20 AM

Re: Systema SpetsNaz - No Contact Combat Video
 
Hopefully someone who trains in Systema will speak up, but it's my understanding that Systema utilizes a number of training exercises which, if taken out of their proper context, look like lame tanking. But they have specific training purposes, and practitioners don't pretend they're practicing combat techniques.

I'm not sure if that's what's going on in these videos, but it refers to some of the other Systema video clips of no-contact stuff.

Marc Abrams 09-20-2007 08:07 AM

Re: Systema SpetsNaz - No Contact Combat Video
 
Cito:

Had you attended any of the Aikido Expos, you would not be questioning the authenticity of these people. Having felt stuff from Vlady (teacher in Toronto) and the head guy from Russia, no questions in my mind! If you doubt it, attend one of their seminars and ask them to allow you to go full out at them.

Marc Abrams

Mark Jakabcsin 09-20-2007 08:22 AM

Re: Systema SpetsNaz - No Contact Combat Video
 
FYI, this video is not Systema as taught by Mikhail Ryabko and Vladimir Vasiliev. The GIQ (gentleman in question) is, I believe, Starov (sorry I can not remember his first name off the top of my head). He trained with Kadochinkov (sp?). Not that he looks like Kadochinkov in this clip. I have heard much gossip about what exactly his relationship was to Kadochinkov but the only thing I know as fact is that he broke away and is doing his own thing and has his own organization.


Take care,

Mark J.

DH 09-20-2007 08:35 AM

Re: Systema SpetsNaz - No Contact Combat Video
 
Marc
There is a difference between questioning this type of uke "response" to blowing it out of proportion to say someone is discrediting the authenticity of certain people. I'll question this type of "demo" and response all day long. It's simply that well trained fighters do not respond that way.

Marc Abrams 09-20-2007 08:50 AM

Re: Systema SpetsNaz - No Contact Combat Video
 
Dan:

I am not in disagreement with you on that. I was responding to the "bullshido" reference. I do not know this particular branch (if it is one) of Systema. Systema does teach people to respond/shape in ways that the normal person would not respond. Much of this is done for safety reasons, learning to shape to force vectors so as to be able to do things to re-shape the force vector.

"well-trained fighters" is a very ambiguous comment. Fighters can be well trained and yet respond to things very differently depending upon the type of training that they received.

For me, feeling is believing. I have felt what those guys can do. That put an end to any questions (in my mind) as to the authenticity/effectiveness of what they do.

Marc Abrams

CitoMaramba 09-20-2007 12:58 PM

Re: Systema SpetsNaz - No Contact Combat Video
 
What I do know is that links to these videos were in a post on the Systema Forum on the Aikido Journal website, but that post has now been deleted.

Al Gutierrez 09-20-2007 07:11 PM

Re: Systema SpetsNaz - No Contact Combat Video
 
Quote:

Just about every martial art demo is a masterwork of deception. Fundemental dishonesty
.

This is true of real demos as well as fake. The art of war is likewise based upon deception. I think the no touch or light touch techniques of advanced systema practitioners are no different than similar techniques by advanced exponents of Daito-ryu or Aikido practitioners in this regard. They're using a form of deception to affect their uke's/attackers.

If you watch the attackers closely as Dan says (and you know what to look for) you can see if the uke's are dishonest - it's difficult however to assess the demonstrators skill based on observation alone.

A.G.

Al Gutierrez 09-21-2007 12:25 AM

Re: Systema SpetsNaz - No Contact Combat Video
 
Qualifier: After watching the clips now, I'm not convinced this individual has the same level of skills as some top Systema or Aiki practitioners. There appears to be excessive conditioning on the part of the attackers like Dan was saying...

I still stand by my comment though - it can be done if you know how to properly deceive your opponent. If he doesn't react/respond, then he's leaving himself open for worse, as I happened to learn the hard way. :uch:

I actually wrote down the way it was explained to me then, to quote a portion I was told that "Usually we think of overcoming or defeating an opponent by the use of some force/violence. We can use superior overwhelming force, or we can use less force intelligently by applying leverage. We can also use an opponent's force/momentum against himself and/or use swift movement/timing to surprise the enemy and catch him off guard. Many martial arts styles and practitioners pride themselves on the use of the latter means to win. But Sun Tzu said the most skillful, preferred or admired way was to win without fighting (or using force)."

I note that he also said that warfare is based on deception.

In the end, only applied force, or the credible threat of force can overcome a committed attacker and compell him to do your will.

A.G.


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