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-   -   Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13147)

salim 08-27-2007 02:14 PM

Aikibudo/Yoseikan Techniques
 
Quote:

Daniel Ranger-Holt wrote: (Post 187733)
Hmmm on why it gets a bad rep for being effective, i think its mostly down to the demonstrations and what those people who think it is ineffective, would define as a fighting martial art. Because Aikido isn't a fighting martial art, how you would instantly think of fighting. Its not as visually impressive as a cool Wing Chun video or Kung Fu, hands on wrestling. So to the average person making these commenrs i would guess mostly teens looking on you tube or seeing Aikido once, because the demonstrations have willing uke it doesnt seem that effective. Even wikipedia picked up on this critisism which i found interesting. This is why i think it gets the rep, an art designed to blend with an attacker and not even get to a one on one fighting stage to most people, isn't going to look impressive, its tho who appreciate the push pull going with the force/enegery who see its potential and understand.

Not true. The original Aikido (Aikibudo) was for combat and self defense. Aikido changed after the religious conversion of Ueshiba. The early students have preserved the original combat Aikido.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vSDyLY-KySo

ChrisMoses 08-27-2007 02:23 PM

Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.
 
Quote:

Salim Shaw wrote: (Post 187735)
Not true. The original Aikido (Aikibudo) was for combat and self defense. Aikido changed after the religious conversion of Ueshiba. The early students have preserved the original combat Aikido.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vSDyLY-KySo

Don't get me wrong, I love me some Yoseikan. But the modern Yoseikan stuff bears very little resemblance to what Aikido came from and is much more of a MMA than a preservation of Daito Ryu or early Aikido.

David Orange 08-27-2007 03:47 PM

Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.
 
Quote:

Salim Shaw wrote: (Post 187735)
Not true. The original Aikido (Aikibudo) was for combat and self defense. Aikido changed after the religious conversion of Ueshiba. The early students have preserved the original combat Aikido.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vSDyLY-KySo

Here's how it looked when it was a bit closer to the pre-war style:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Sf39s46Qx...elated&search=

The first part is technical rationale, the second is the randori.

David

salim 08-27-2007 04:58 PM

Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.
 
Quote:

Christian Moses wrote: (Post 187739)
Don't get me wrong, I love me some Yoseikan. But the modern Yoseikan stuff bears very little resemblance to what Aikido came from and is much more of a MMA than a preservation of Daito Ryu or early Aikido.

I only referenced the Yoseikan clip to show the combative nature of Aikido. The original Aikido contain more sutemi-waza and atemi waza, which has been almost completely removed from the Aikikai organization. Yoseikan has retain a lot of the original methodologies from Aikibudo. Yes it has been modernized, but has retained the self defense methods.

salim 08-27-2007 05:04 PM

Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.
 
Quote:

David Orange wrote: (Post 187756)
Here's how it looked when it was a bit closer to the pre-war style:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Sf39s46Qx...elated&search=

The first part is technical rationale, the second is the randori.

David

Aikibudo, (original Aikido) much closer to the Yoseikan Aikido. The preservation of atemi waza and sutemi-waza are heavily part of the methodology. The Aikikai organizations has almost completely removed these methods. The combative nature has been removed.

Aiki1 08-27-2007 05:57 PM

Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.
 
Quote:

Salim Shaw wrote: (Post 187765)
Aikibudo, (original Aikido) much closer to the Yoseikan Aikido. The preservation of atemi waza and sutemi-waza are heavily part of the methodology. The Aikikai organizations has almost completely removed these methods. The combative nature has been removed.

Every thread I read that you post in comes out the same - Yoseikan is the real deal etc etc etc.... From what I have seen, modern Yoseikan Budo has Nothing to do with Aikido. It's cool, I really like it in fact, but I've been teaching Aikido for almost 25 years, have studied several other arts incl. BJJ, and it is not Aikido anymore, from the clips that I have seen of the demos and competitions. This is not a bad thing, but Aikido is indeed something else.

salim 08-27-2007 06:18 PM

Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.
 
Quote:

Larry Novick wrote: (Post 187783)
Every thread I read that you post in comes out the same - Yoseikan is the real deal etc etc etc.... From what I have seen, modern Yoseikan Budo has Nothing to do with Aikido. It's cool, I really like it in fact, but I've been teaching Aikido for almost 25 years, have studied several other arts incl. BJJ, and it is not Aikido anymore, from the clips that I have seen of the demos and competitions. This is not a bad thing, but Aikido is indeed something else.

You totally misconstrued my meaning. I never said that Yoseikan is the real deal. I mention the original Aikibudo (Aikido) and it's combat roots. The point here is about the methodology of combat, self defense tactics. I only used Yoseikan Aikido as an example. Please don't mix Aikikai methodology with the principles of Aikibudo, because it's not the same.

salim 08-27-2007 06:30 PM

Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.
 
Quote:

Larry Novick wrote: (Post 187783)
Every thread I read that you post in comes out the same - Yoseikan is the real deal etc etc etc.... From what I have seen, modern Yoseikan Budo has Nothing to do with Aikido. It's cool, I really like it in fact, but I've been teaching Aikido for almost 25 years, have studied several other arts incl. BJJ, and it is not Aikido anymore, from the clips that I have seen of the demos and competitions. This is not a bad thing, but Aikido is indeed something else.

Let's face it, Aikikai methodology is for love and peace, not for fighting. Aikibudo methodology is for fighting when you have to, that's the difference.

mathewjgano 08-27-2007 06:34 PM

Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.
 
Quote:

Salim Shaw wrote: (Post 187786)
You totally misconstrued my meaning. I never said that Yoseikan is the real deal. I mention the original Aikibudo (Aikido) and it's combat roots. The point here is about the methodology of combat, self defense tactics. I only used Yoseikan Aikido as an example. Please don't mix Aikikai methodology with the principles of Aikibudo, because it's not the same.

I'm confused...
You said Yoseikan is an example which more closely resembles the combat-oriented roots of Aikido, implying it represents a more realistic approach to self-defense than Aikikai. I took the phrase "real deal" to meant "effective in self-defense" in which case the author was accurately describing your intent...unless of course I'm misunderstanding your (or his) meaning as well.
...are we on the same page? Or are we losing the conveyed meaning to differences in semantics?
Sincerely,
matt

salim 08-27-2007 06:46 PM

Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.
 
Quote:

Matthew Gano wrote: (Post 187789)
I'm confused...
You said Yoseikan is an example which more closely resembles the combat-oriented roots of Aikido, implying it represents a more realistic approach to self-defense than Aikikai. I took the phrase "real deal" to meant "effective in self-defense" in which case the author was accurately describing your intent...unless of course I'm misunderstanding your (or his) meaning as well.
...are we on the same page? Or are we losing the conveyed meaning to differences in semantics?
Sincerely,
matt

Yes an example, but not the only example. It's not the all be all of Aikido. In my dojo we practice Aikibudo which is very similar to what sensei Alain Floquet teaches in France. We use the principles of Daito Ryu Jujutsu, Judo and atemi waza. The karate principles are not really taught as much, unlike Yoseikan.

mathewjgano 08-27-2007 06:50 PM

Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.
 
Quote:

Salim Shaw wrote: (Post 187788)
Let's face it, Aikikai methodology is for love and peace, not for fighting. Aikibudo methodology is for fighting when you have to, that's the difference.

When i fight, it is for love and peace. I don't see how they are mutually exclusive concepts. Fighting when you have to (and we might disagree on what "fighting" entails, for all i know), implies to me the notion of doing it only for the sake of things like love and peace.
I've known fighters, and they either fight for the sake of ending the fight (peace) or they're making money off it or they're base-minded (eg-fighting because they're insecure and feel the need to prove something to someone...the latter of which represents most of my friends growing up).
Could you elaborate on what you mean by "fighting when you have to"?
Take care,
Matt

mathewjgano 08-27-2007 07:25 PM

Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.
 
Quote:

Matthew Gano wrote: (Post 187792)
When i fight, it is for love and peace.

...more correctly, I try to "fight" only for peace; because of love. With this in mind it doesn't seem to make much sense to imply an organization which dedicates itself to peace and love can't also "fight" only when necessary. Anyhoo...
Take care.

("whats so funny about peace love and understanding?"-Elvis Costello and the Attractions)

salim 08-27-2007 07:36 PM

Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.
 
Quote:

Matthew Gano wrote: (Post 187795)
...more correctly, I try to "fight" only for peace; because of love. With this in mind it doesn't seem to make much sense to imply an organization which dedicates itself to peace and love can't also "fight" only when necessary. Anyhoo...
Take care.

("whats so funny about peace love and understanding?"-Elvis Costello and the Attractions)

I mean fight if I have no other choice. Self defense kicks in, protect myself and my love ones. Use the skills from Aikibudo or any other art to defend myself.

David Orange 08-27-2007 08:07 PM

Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.
 
Quote:

Salim Shaw wrote: (Post 187765)
Aikibudo, (original Aikido) much closer to the Yoseikan Aikido. The preservation of atemi waza and sutemi-waza are heavily part of the methodology. The Aikikai organizations has almost completely removed these methods. The combative nature has been removed.

Salim,

The original aiki of Morihei Ueshiba included no sutemi waza. All that is the development of Minoru Mochizuki, founder of yoseikan.

The sutemi waza, you are correct, were a vital part of old-style aikido.

Best to you.

David

ChrisMoses 08-27-2007 08:31 PM

Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.
 
Quote:

David Orange wrote: (Post 187800)
Salim,

The original aiki of Morihei Ueshiba included no sutemi waza. All that is the development of Minoru Mochizuki, founder of yoseikan.

The sutemi waza, you are correct, were a vital part of old-style aikido.

Best to you.

David

David, I'm assuming you meant "The atemi waza, you are correct, were a vital part of old-style aikido." Correct?

Modern (meaning the French stuff) Yoseikan, isn't my bag. Older, Mochizuki Sensei Senior Yoseikan, is pretty cool stuff. Chop sockey chambarra with takedowns is probably a lot of fun however.

salim 08-27-2007 08:34 PM

Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.
 
Quote:

David Orange wrote: (Post 187800)
Salim,

The original aiki of Morihei Ueshiba included no sutemi waza. All that is the development of Minoru Mochizuki, founder of yoseikan.

The sutemi waza, you are correct, were a vital part of old-style aikido.

Best to you.

David

Don't forget that Ueshiba study Judo under Kiyoichi Takagi from 1903 to 1908 when he was calling his marital art Aikibudo.

PeterR 08-27-2007 11:52 PM

Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.
 
Quote:

Salim Shaw wrote: (Post 187804)
Don't forget that Ueshiba study Judo under Kiyoichi Takagi from 1903 to 1908 when he was calling his marital art Aikibudo.

Ueshiba was calling his art what in 1903 to 1908?

The Takagi period was what 1911?, and at that point he didn't even meet Takeda much less start naming his style.

I know why there so much confusion about Aikido.

darin 08-28-2007 07:46 AM

Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.
 
Quote:

Larry Novick wrote: (Post 187783)
Every thread I read that you post in comes out the same - Yoseikan is the real deal etc etc etc.... From what I have seen, modern Yoseikan Budo has Nothing to do with Aikido. It's cool, I really like it in fact, but I've been teaching Aikido for almost 25 years, have studied several other arts incl. BJJ, and it is not Aikido anymore, from the clips that I have seen of the demos and competitions. This is not a bad thing, but Aikido is indeed something else.

Sorry Salim, I have to agree with Larry here. From my conversations with Roy Hebden the technical head of Yoseikan World Federation in Australia, they have basically removed any move that is considered too difficult or dangerous to apply and also meet the rules for their sport. Its why there is almost no traditional aikido in their system. They are upfront whyt they don't do aikido anymore. I was told by Mitchi Mochizuki that there is no more Aikido, karate, iaido in yoseikan budo. There is only Yoseikan Budo. One martial art.

I believe that Minoru Mochizuki's goal was to create a better martial art not a better aikido.

salim 08-28-2007 07:59 AM

Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.
 
Quote:

Peter Rehse wrote: (Post 187818)
Ueshiba was calling his art what in 1903 to 1908?

The Takagi period was what 1911?, and at that point he didn't even meet Takeda much less start naming his style.

I know why there so much confusion about Aikido.

Oops, type the wrong date, I meant 1911. Yes the art was called Aikibudo during this time. The problem here is a mentality issue that stems from the Aikikai organization. They have a zealous almost confrontational attitude about being the definitive representation of Aikido, which is not the case. Aikikai is not the only Aikido and definitely not the original Aikido. Let's be honest about the superiority complex. Let's be honest about Aikikai not being the original Aikido.

darin 08-28-2007 08:04 AM

Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.
 
Quote:

Salim Shaw wrote: (Post 187788)
Let's face it, Aikikai methodology is for love and peace, not for fighting. Aikibudo methodology is for fighting when you have to, that's the difference.

lol, I have seen plenty of fruity aikido in Yoseikan... For the record I wouldn't recommend traditional Yoseikan aikido and some of the aiki you see done by the YWF by themselves if you want to learn self defence aikido. Without the judo and karate elements they are pretty hollow. I can't comment on Alain Flouquet's (sorry if I spelt it wrong) dojo as I have never been there but looks as if they do a harder style similar to what I learned.

I don't think that Minoru Mochizuki video demonstrated good aikido. The only interesting part was Washizu Sensei doing sutemi.

Again my opinion, I think you will find better self defense aikido in Yoshinakan and Tomiki aikido because they have specialized in it.

raul rodrigo 08-28-2007 08:34 AM

Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.
 
Quote:

Salim Shaw wrote: (Post 187848)
Oops, type the wrong date, I meant 1911. Yes the art was called Aikibudo during this time. The problem here is a mentality issue that stems from the Aikikai organization. They have a zealous almost confrontational attitude about being the definitive representation of Aikido, which is not the case. Aikikai is not the only Aikido and definitely not the original Aikido. Let's be honest about the superiority complex. Let's be honest about Aikikai not being the original Aikido.

Ueshiba called his art aikibudo in 1911? Either thats a typo too, or you need to do a little more research.

R

PeterR 08-28-2007 08:40 AM

Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.
 
Quote:

Salim Shaw wrote: (Post 187848)
Oops, type the wrong date, I meant 1911. Yes the art was called Aikibudo during this time.

By who. Mochizuki was learning Daito-ryu aikijujutsu from Ueshiba, it was only later that Ueshiba started changing the name. If I recall the names progressed via Ueshiba-ryu, Asahi-ryu, and finally aiki budo before the name change to aikido. We are talking late 1930s to early 1940s for the time Aikibudo was used.

I am sorry - but I think a lot of the confusion about aikido comes from inacurracies like this.

David Orange 08-28-2007 08:42 AM

Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.
 
Quote:

Christian Moses wrote: (Post 187803)
David, I'm assuming you meant "The atemi waza, you are correct, were a vital part of old-style aikido." Correct?

Yes. Atemi waza. Can't believe I did that.....

Thanks.

David

David Orange 08-28-2007 08:45 AM

Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.
 
Quote:

Salim Shaw wrote: (Post 187804)
Don't forget that Ueshiba study Judo under Kiyoichi Takagi from 1903 to 1908 when he was calling his marital art Aikibudo.

I have never heard of O-Sensei using sutemi waza, but the sutemi waza of the yoseikan are all the direct inventions of Minoru Mochizuki. Some people say that he got them from gyokushin ryu jujutsu, but he never actually saw the gyokushin sutemi waza. He was uchi deshi to Kyuzo Minfune, who was an expert at sutemi and he used Mifune's example with hints from his experience in gyokushin to develop a sutemi version of pretty much every aikido technique he had learned.

If you have any examples of O-Sensei's using sutemi waza, it would be interesting to hear about that.

Best to you.

David

David Orange 08-28-2007 08:49 AM

Re: Why is there so much confusion about Aikido.
 
Quote:

Darin Hyde wrote: (Post 187845)
I believe that Minoru Mochizuki's goal was to create a better martial art not a better aikido.

I think it was both to do the best aikido he could do and the best all-around martial art he could do. And to him, the best martial art would naturally use aiki. While modern yoseikan is a single art (though I thought they had "divisions" for aikido, judo, karate, kenjutsu, etc.), Minoru Mochizuki maintained an "aikido" class until he left Japan at an old age (mid-90s, I think, around the year 2000).

Anyway...I see you're in Perth. Have you trained with Unno Sensei, Mochizuki Sensei's old student?

David


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