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-   -   Roughly the same time that a guy was "turning the other cheek" - - Art of Peace (TM) (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12998)

Ellis Amdur 08-01-2007 07:40 PM

Roughly the same time that a guy was "turning the other cheek" - - Art of Peace (TM)
 
In The Super-Athletes by David P. Willoughby, on page 330, he describes a champion Roman boxer named Melancomas, who was a favorite of the emperor Titus (80 A.D.)
Quote:

Melancomas was of a school of boxers whose technique was not to strike a blow, but to wear out their oppoents by holding them off with straight arms. According to Dion Chrysostom, a contemporary Greek historian, Melancomas held out for whole hours, his arms extended in the face of his antagonist, who sought in vain to reach him and bruised himself in vain efforts to break through those two muscular bars, as resistant as steel. It is said that Melancomas could remain for two consecutive days in this fatiguing position, while others were completely exhausted. he would leave the arena without having given or received (to his head or body) a single blow, "a feat which may be regarded as the perfection of the art of self-defense" (G. Depping, Wonders of Bodily Strength and Skill, 1873, p. 42. According to Depping, Melancomas "regarded with pity those of his brethren who, after heavy smashing upon each other's faces, left the arena mutilated and disfigured, and considered this great waste of strength an actual proof of weakness."

gdandscompserv 08-01-2007 08:27 PM

Re: Roughly the same time that a guy was "turning the other cheek" - - Art of Peace (
 
Classic Ellis, classic.

DH 08-01-2007 09:26 PM

Re: Roughly the same time that a guy was "turning the other cheek" - - Art of Peace (
 
Good story
Stiff arming is old though. Its like stalling. It can be used as a defensive tactic in grappling; Judo, jujutsu, wrestling etc. It can be done with muscle, albeit with some finesse through alignment and quickness (the responsive kind). And some experienced guys here and there I'd bet learned how to take the shoulders out of it. Overall though, I'd say relaxed bent arms and dealing with them "when" they get -in- is of a higher skill level. But thats more comlicated then stiff arming. It involves more than just bone alignment and simple structure. Further still, playing them on the inside or the outside, by being heavy, then light, being able to absorb then deliver power, IMO is more difficult then "holding off" someone trying to come in. At some level, we can say it's all good though I guess. Technique, in the right hands, can do a hell of allot. Not where I want to be, but.....

Pete Rihaczek 08-01-2007 09:50 PM

Re: Roughly the same time that a guy was "turning the other cheek" - - Art of Peace (
 
Quote:

Ellis Amdur wrote: (Post 185247)
In The Super-Athletes by David P. Willoughby, on page 330, he describes a champion Roman boxer named Melancomas, who was a favorite of the emperor Titus (80 A.D.)

Odd, I didn't think Roman spectators were known for their patience. Sounds like an incredible borefest. No wonder they did the lion thing, maybe they were making up for boring boxing matches. ;)

gdandscompserv 08-02-2007 06:16 AM

Re: Roughly the same time that a guy was "turning the other cheek" - - Art of Peace (
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 185261)
Good story
Stiff arming is old though. Its like stalling. It can be used as a defensive tactic in grappling; Judo, jujutsu, wrestling etc. It can be done with muscle, albeit with some finesse through alignment and quickness (the responsive kind). And some experienced guys here and there I'd bet learned how to take the shoulders out of it. Overall though, I'd say relaxed bent arms and dealing with them "when" they get -in- is of a higher skill level. But thats more comlicated then stiff arming. It involves more than just bone alignment and simple structure. Further still, playing them on the inside or the outside, by being heavy, then light, being able to absorb then deliver power, IMO is more difficult then "holding off" someone trying to come in. At some level, we can say it's all good though I guess. Technique, in the right hands, can do a hell of allot. Not where I want to be, but.....

So why complicate things Dan?

MM 08-02-2007 07:46 AM

Re: Roughly the same time that a guy was "turning the other cheek" - - Art of Peace (
 
Quote:

Ellis Amdur wrote: (Post 185247)
In The Super-Athletes by David P. Willoughby, on page 330, he describes a champion Roman boxer named Melancomas, who was a favorite of the emperor Titus (80 A.D.)

Do you think that maybe Melancomas learned this stuff in his barn (with 4 hours of training) from some neo-Greek sect that invited foreign (secret stuff that can't be divulged) military people to help train him in rotational gyroscopic internal mechanics, but done in a complicated manner to thoroughly confuse some guy named Ockham who would come along later to try to rationalize their methods?

Hmmm ... did I miss anyone, er, um, I mean anything? ;)

Silly mood, I guess.

Mark

Cady Goldfield 08-02-2007 08:35 AM

Re: Roughly the same time that a guy was "turning the other cheek" - - Art of Peace (
 
Must be somethin' in the drinking water... :p

MM 08-02-2007 09:16 AM

Re: Roughly the same time that a guy was "turning the other cheek" - - Art of Peace (
 
Quote:

Cady Goldfield wrote: (Post 185310)
Must be somethin' in the drinking water... :p

Now that's some high quality H2O, er Budo. ;)

M. McPherson 08-02-2007 10:26 AM

Re: Roughly the same time that a guy was "turning the other cheek" - - Art of Peace (
 
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 185300)
Do you think that maybe Melancomas learned this stuff in his barn (with 4 hours of training) from some neo-Greek sect that invited foreign (secret stuff that can't be divulged) military people to help train him in rotational gyroscopic internal mechanics, but done in a complicated manner to thoroughly confuse some guy named Ockham who would come along later to try to rationalize their methods?
Mark

"Neo-Greek?" Are you trying to imply that only the Romans had this stuff, Mark? Can you prove that? Huh? Can you? 'Cuz the Greeks had this stuff waaaay before those provincial Gaius-come-lately's mucking about in the Avantine. This was high level stuff all around the Med, don't ya know.... Dollars to doughnuts there's a Hoplite seminar in your area sometime soon where you can feel this stuff firsthand (pm me, and I'll let you know who the good ones are...watch out for Epaminondas of Chaeronea, wink-wink). It'll blow the doors off that tepid Palatinian internal crap you're peddling. Say, just what is your history with this stuff anyway, and who were your Doctores?

Suspiciously,
Murray

Ron Tisdale 08-02-2007 10:30 AM

Re: Roughly the same time that a guy was "turning the other cheek" - - Art of Peace (
 
:D Not to mention, what can **you** actually DO with this stuff????

B,
R ;)

Erick Mead 08-02-2007 10:34 AM

Re: Roughly the same time that a guy was "turning the other cheek" - - Art of Peace (
 
Quote:

Pete Rihaczek wrote: (Post 185265)
Odd, I didn't think Roman spectators were known for their patience. Sounds like an incredible borefest. No wonder they did the lion thing, maybe they were making up for boring boxing matches. ;)

"Listen to me. Learn from me. I was not the best because I killed quickly. I was the best because the crowd loved me. Win the crowd and you will win your freedom." Proximo, Gladiator ... OK -- lacking in scholarship, mebbe, but the truth is there. Anyway, have you ever SEEN a cestus, much less been hit by one. NOT Marquis of Queensberry by any stretch. Youch.

Quote:

The cestus was used by boxers from the earliest times. ... but it should be recollected, that the cestus in heroic times appears to have consisted merely of thongs of leather, and differed materially from the frightful weapons, loaded with lead and iron, which were used in later times. ...
If I find an image I'll upload it and post.

MM 08-02-2007 10:59 AM

Re: Roughly the same time that a guy was "turning the other cheek" - - Art of Peace (
 
Quote:

Murray McPherson wrote: (Post 185323)
"Neo-Greek?" Are you trying to imply that only the Romans had this stuff, Mark? Can you prove that? Huh? Can you? 'Cuz the Greeks had this stuff waaaay before those provincial Gaius-come-lately's mucking about in the Avantine. This was high level stuff all around the Med, don't ya know.... Dollars to doughnuts there's a Hoplite seminar in your area sometime soon where you can feel this stuff firsthand (pm me, and I'll let you know who the good ones are...watch out for Epaminondas of Chaeronea, wink-wink). It'll blow the doors off that tepid Palatinian internal crap you're peddling. Say, just what is your history with this stuff anyway, and who were your Doctores?

Suspiciously,
Murray

It's documented that Melancomas studied under Roman boxing coaches. Although he played around with other things like shotput, javelin, wrestling, he really only dabbled. His true teacher was the Roman boxing champion, Takedius. So, your Greek theory is just that, theory. Do you have anything to show that Melancomas learned his boxing skills from any Greek? There's plenty of written accounts of showing the Roman training. Even though the Greeks had this stuff, there's no connection between them and Melancomas.

Although, as the scholar Amdurius wrote, all the people who would know for sure are dead. ;)

Mark

MM 08-02-2007 11:02 AM

Re: Roughly the same time that a guy was "turning the other cheek" - - Art of Peace (
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote: (Post 185324)
:D Not to mention, what can **you** actually DO with this stuff????

B,
R ;)

ROTFLMAO!!!

Oh, man, I'm glad I wasn't drinking anything when I caught up reading this thread. I just hope some of the parties involved have a sense of humor. Otherwise, we might just experience those no-inch releases again firsthand. ;)

Mark

Mike Sigman 08-02-2007 11:04 AM

Re: Roughly the same time that a guy was "turning the other cheek" - - Art of Peace (
 
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 185300)
Do you think that maybe Melancomas learned this stuff in his barn (with 4 hours of training) from some neo-Greek sect that invited foreign (secret stuff that can't be divulged) military people to help train him in rotational gyroscopic internal mechanics, but done in a complicated manner to thoroughly confuse some guy named Ockham who would come along later to try to rationalize their methods?

Hmmm ... did I miss anyone, er, um, I mean anything? ;)

Some of the reports of Melankomas seem to indicate that he actually did a lot of dodging, not just fending off people with his extended arms. There also seems to be a tendency to mix up Melankomas with his brother, Melanomas, who died of cancer at an early age. ;)

Mike

Ron Tisdale 08-02-2007 11:19 AM

Re: Roughly the same time that a guy was "turning the other cheek" - - Art of Peace (
 
Good one, Mike!

B,
R

gdandscompserv 08-02-2007 11:40 AM

Re: Roughly the same time that a guy was "turning the other cheek" - - Art of Peace (
 
I've only got one thing to add to this thread.

Seriously though. It seems very aikidoish to defend oneself in the manner of Melancomas. I like it.

Erick Mead 08-02-2007 12:44 PM

Re: Roughly the same time that a guy was "turning the other cheek" - - Art of Peace (
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Erick Mead wrote: (Post 185325)
Cestus ... If I find an image I'll upload it and post.

As promised:

http://www.aikiweb.com/gallery/showp...7&limit=recent


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