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-   -   Silent ukemi, or not... (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1296)

Jappzz 11-21-2001 04:36 PM

Silent ukemi, or not...
 
Hi everyone.

I have a question that came to me serving as uke for my sensei during childrens class last week. I have always been given the that ukemi in aikido should follow some kind of concept based on smoothness and gentleness to assure good and safe ukemi. Comming from a koshinage or a pin etc. where nage is holding on to you that seems to be real hard scince you can't do any breakfalls. Now i KNOW this is when you dash your arm away with all you've got to protect your head and shoulder.
It just came to me last week when being uke on a koshinage that some of the children where banging their little palms in the mat at the same time i did so. Clearly they had no concept of why i did it and the surely didn't incorporate it in their own ukemi. But i still got me thinking when the thing that these kids apparantly saw this as some sort of weird, flashy gimmic that also distracted them that i might be doing them a bad favour in banging away too loud.
Does anybody have an oppinion wether ukemi should always be silent and/or if it's actually BAD ukemi to produce more sound than that of a spinning lump of meat willingly rolling along in his gi.

Jasper

[Censored] 11-21-2001 05:45 PM

If you need to slap, and you don't, that is bad technique.

If you don't need to slap, and you do anyway, that is really bad technique.

If you intentionally make noise when you fall down, that is REALLY bad technique.

Thalib 11-21-2001 06:00 PM

Good point...
 
Actually Satori has a good point.

To slap or not to slap is in accordance to the situation. The sound is actually a side effect.

But as you go along, and better at controlling yourself at breakfalls, you will see that you will make as little sound as possible.

shihonage 11-21-2001 06:31 PM

Re: Silent ukemi, or not...
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Jappzz

Does anybody have an oppinion wether ukemi should always be silent and/or if it's actually BAD ukemi to produce more sound than that of a spinning lump of meat willingly rolling along in his gi.

Ukemi should be safe.

Thalib 11-21-2001 06:36 PM

Straight to the point...
 
Wow, Sundeyev, short, straight to the point, and hit it right on the mark.

colinlam 11-22-2001 12:55 AM

i really think slapping the floor depends on how high u've been thrown ... if u r being thrown lightly then u can simply roll away ... if u've been thrown hard or from a high position , u better slap the floor for safety sake (take Judo's kata guruma as an exmaple)

Hagen Seibert 11-22-2001 03:05 AM

My teacher, Shimizu Sensei, emphasizes frequently that ukemi has to be done together with Nage, and not neccessarily silent.

That means, itīs no good if Uke - coming to the point of being thrown - jumps off by himself and then landing on the mat like a feather. Because this is likely to result if people are trying to achieve a silent ukemi. But the connection between Uke and Nage is disrupted, Uke is performing ukemi on his own. Focus should be on acting together, so itīs not only Nage who has got to harmonize and blend.

jimvance 11-27-2001 01:22 AM

I think most everyone here has watched the beginning sequence to the TV show "Kung Fu" one too many times...you know, the part where Grasshopper's teacher tells him to walk across the rice paper without noise or leaving a trace. Ukemi is not about making (or not making) noise, it's about taking care of your self. I think the real question in Jasper's initial post was "Gosh, why do I slap the mat?" Let me answer it this way:

I weigh 180 pounds, a large portion of that weight being bone mass (breakable). If you drop a cadaver of equal weight from a height of about 10 to 30 inches, would it make noise? The cadaver is beyond caring whether its bones and skull remain intact, so it does not round its back, tuck its head or divert force by slapping the ground. But I think it would still make some noise. If you drop a heavy sack, it will make noise. If you roll a steel-belted radial tire across the ground it will make some noise. Forget the noise crap.

If you have time to think about how hard you are going to slap the mat, you aren't doing your job as uke. "Well kote gaeshi is okay, but maybe not for shihonage." When do we have time to make up these rules? I agree with Hagen. It's not uke's job to make himself, his teacher, or his ukemi look good by taking "ninja rolls" or "silent ukemi". His job is to get up in one piece. And if you must make noise, make it. I usually make a lot of noise from ukemi the next day, you know, walking around and stuff....

Jim Vance

Jappzz 11-27-2001 05:01 AM

Re re re...
 
Ok i didn't state my point clearly enough. So i'll try to remedy that now instead.
Naturally i understand that my no.1 priority should be safety. I mean there's a reason why i don't collapse like the cadaver in above post but instead try to protect my vital parts. The question was not wether i should prioritize safety above noisemaking or not. My question was if it could be considered bad form or nonconstructive to make exessive noise. Maybe it's a dumb question but i just feel that the noise produced by fellow aikidoka and myself might not always be motivated. The question is wether one should deliberatety try to moderate one's ukemi so you don't distract your pupils, yourself or corrupt your form by trying too hard in a stereotype manner. Something like that...

Hope aah got thru to ya'll this time

Hugs

Jasper

lt-rentaroo 11-27-2001 08:22 AM

Hello,

Hmm, I've never really thought about this before. I believe that the harder I'm tossed, the more noise I make when I land (at least when a breakfall is involved). I don't intentionally "slap" the mat during rolls or breakfalls, as I've found it actually distracts others who are training nearby.

You hear a loud slap, turn to look, and then get smacked in the head with a Shomenuchi.

Have a good day!

wildaikido 11-27-2001 08:42 AM

You need to focus on the attack and not sounds especially when you are in a real situation. You can't let anything distract you.

guest1234 11-27-2001 08:46 AM

I think that it is easier to make noise when thrown hard, easier to be silent when thrown soft, but possible to be either in both cases---it just take more focus and effort to be silent with a hard throw and loud with a soft one. Like practicing variations on technique, I think it is good to try them all. I do not find the demo uke falling hard to be distracting, nor do I find those around me falling hard to be distracting, but perhaps I am more able to ignore noise from working in ERs :rolleyes:

My first sensei could do a silent breakfall, a goal I have not yet reached.;)

I have had others twice my size thrown on top of me, even on fairly deserted mats, so I tend to slap hard when near others as a self defense, be aware I'm down here kind of thing.:eek:

Creature_of_the_id 11-27-2001 09:01 AM

I was always taught that when rolling it should be silent, and when breakfalling you should make alot of noise with the slap of your hand as it takes the shock away from the spine.

I told a student recently that the more noise you make when you breakfall the less damage you will do to yourself. the next time he did a breakfall not only did he slap the mat, but he also shouted lol :D

must learn to be more explicit with words when teaching.

Kev

Bryan Webb 11-27-2001 10:55 AM

Have You seen Donavan Waite Sensei's videos on Ukemi ?

If not give them a look. Both Silent and not.

Great Video!!!!

Greg Jennings 11-27-2001 12:01 PM

Ukemi is so much more than falling.

With that said, your falls have to be not only safe for the moment, but healthy for the longer term.

Regards,

lt-rentaroo 11-27-2001 01:08 PM

Hello,

Graham - I was joking about the noise of loud ukemi being a distractor (at least for me).

That said though, I've noticed that beginning students often do allow the noise from loud ukemi distract them. It seems the need to see where the noise came from is an ingrained response.

None of my military training has addressed this specifically, but I've talked to those who have received training concerning this response. For example, training soldiers to drop to the ground when a loud noise occurs nearby, instead of standing up and possibly becoming injured or even worse, losing your head!

Perhaps Colleen can elaborate more on the importance of not letting noise become a distractor on the battlefield :D

Have a good day!

[Censored] 11-27-2001 03:32 PM

The question was not wether i should prioritize safety above noisemaking or not. My question was if it could be considered bad form or nonconstructive to make exessive noise. Maybe it's a dumb question but i just feel that the noise produced by fellow aikidoka and myself might not always be motivated. The question is wether one should deliberatety try to moderate one's ukemi so you don't distract your pupils, yourself or corrupt your form by trying too hard in a stereotype manner.

You want the most efficient use of energy. If you have too much energy and there is no other way to dissipate it, then hit the mat as hard as necessary. If not, do not. Very simple, but few people understand.

If classmates are disturbed by loud noises, that is their problem to solve.

Mares 11-27-2001 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by [Censored]

If classmates are disturbed by loud noises, that is their problem to solve.

This is what gets me. I don't understand how noise could distract other students. Shouldn't there also be kiaai-ing especially from the senior students? does that distract other students? From my experience it's the kiaai's which generate more noise than the mat slapping.

But i guess the amount of noise around would be dojo specific. We are constantly reminded that we are in a dojo and not a church so plenty of loud kiaai's are expected.

as far as breakfalls/highfalls are concerned, I have found that the high you go the softer you land and the less noise you make. Within reason of course

michaelkvance 11-27-2001 09:33 PM

Quote:

Shouldn't there also be kiaai-ing especially from the senior students?
Er? Do some dojos teach this? How interesting.

We had some fellows come to one of our intensives once, and whenever I would throw them (irimi-nage, tenchi-nage), they'd utter in a low, raspy voice, "uuuttzzzz". I kept thinking I had hurt them or something, very strange!

m.

Greg Jennings 11-28-2001 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by michaelkvance

Er? Do some dojos teach this? How interesting.

We had some fellows come to one of our intensives once, and whenever I would throw them (irimi-nage, tenchi-nage), they'd utter in a low, raspy voice, "uuuttzzzz". I kept thinking I had hurt them or something, very strange!

Er? You find it odd that people kiai when executing technique or when being thrown?

How very strange!

Regards,

guest1234 11-28-2001 10:42 AM

The most different noise I've heard (usually at seminars, sometimes from a visitor) is a kind of yipping and/or yapping sound: "y-i-i-i-i-p-p...." and "y-a-a-a-a-a-p-p..."

Sprinkle a couple of those into a usually quiet dojo, toss in a few Kiai's, and pretty soon there'd be a supressed giggle or two.

Of course, there are also the senior students who manage to make an encouraging "yes, that's it, yes" comment on technique sound like the sound track from an adult movie:rolleyes:

ranZ 11-29-2001 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ca
Of course, there are also the senior students who manage to make an encouraging "yes, that's it, yes" comment on technique sound like the sound track from an adult movie:rolleyes: [/b]
i hope they don't do "oooh... aahhh" sounds.. :D

Being thrown usually i'd be making "whoaa!" sounds followed by "ughh!" and a loud thud on the tatami.

i still can't believe ppl can do that silent ukemi.... amazing. (*one of my long term goal too *)
can u believe some senseis can leap above obstacles as high as he/she and make a silent ukemi.:eek:

guest1234 11-29-2001 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ranZ


i hope they don't do "oooh... aahhh" sounds.. :D


Nooo, more like "Yes! That's IT! Ye-e-s-s-s, ye-s-s-s, YE-E-E-S-S-S!!! Very nice!" :eek:

Of course, I think the 'very nice' part might not be found in those types of movies, I'm not sure...:rolleyes:

:D

shihonage 11-29-2001 04:04 PM

"Yes ! Enter deeper !"

Thalib 11-29-2001 04:23 PM

???
 
Oh... we're going towards those type of sound making are we...


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