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-   -   Koshi tips (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129)

adriangan 07-18-2000 11:02 PM

Hi all,

I'm really having a hard time executing Koshi techniques, can any of you give me tips, guidelines, etc...anything to make it easier?

akiy 07-19-2000 08:42 AM

Practice helps.

As a general tip, one of the things when I first started was having a partner who was pretty much at my skill level who was also good at ukemi. We would work after class on things like koshinage and would just alternate throwing each other for about an hour.

I don't know what "type" of koshinage you do at your school so it's tough for me to give specific pointers. If you can, grab someone willing and practice with them...

-- Jun

Guest5678 07-19-2000 09:56 AM

Quote:

adriangan wrote:
Hi all,

I'm really having a hard time executing Koshi techniques, can any of you give me tips, guidelines, etc...anything to make it easier?

adriangan,

I highly reccomend you visit bujin and get Ikeda sensei's tape on this. It's great information.

This is the url.
http://www.bujindesign.com/cgi-bin/catalog/home

Good luck and remember to relax harder!

Mongo

adriangan 07-19-2000 05:37 PM

Quote:

akiy wrote:
Practice helps.

As a general tip, one of the things when I first started was having a partner who was pretty much at my skill level who was also good at ukemi. We would work after class on things like koshinage and would just alternate throwing each other for about an hour.

I don't know what "type" of koshinage you do at your school so it's tough for me to give specific pointers. If you can, grab someone willing and practice with them...

-- Jun


I guess that I'm constantly having trouble trying to lift my uke's center using my hips, I usually don't have a problem with the irimi, but after getting in position for the throw everything breaks up. My sensei makes it look so easy, especially performing the technique on the big guys.


- Adrian

Chuck Clark 07-19-2000 10:02 PM

I generally don't give many technical tips on the web. It is very difficult to make sense out of even the best of explinations and descriptions of principle and practice exercises, etc.

Just one idea for you to chase... stop lifting the uke with your energy... use the lifting action of the uke's own legs and fit your body correctly and use "sweet" timing to cause uke to throw themself into the air and then let gravity do it's job.

Nick 07-20-2000 08:53 AM

heh don't worry about it... I've been unsucessful doing koshi many times (and I taught my uke the true meaning of ukemi ;)).

Your waza will improve steadily- I believe it's the mental and spiritual effects that must be watched more carefully.

-Nick

Guest5678 07-20-2000 09:18 AM

Lifting Uke --- not!
 
Quote:

adriangan wrote:

I guess that I'm constantly having trouble trying to lift my uke's center using my hips, I usually don't have a problem with the irimi, but after getting in position for the throw everything breaks up. My sensei makes it look so easy, especially performing the technique on the big guys.


- Adrian [/b]
Adrin,

Some real good advice that helped me with koshinage (besides lots of practice) was to stop trying to lift uke up. Instead, you should have uke's balance (from the irimi) to the point where uke practically falls over your hips. The position you need to be in for most koshi techniques is difficult at first, but if you practice getting well under uke's center and extending them out over your hips, uke will have no option but to take the fall. As I posted here earlier, Ikeda's sensei's koshinage tape is an excellent place to start !

Good luck!

Mongo

adriangan 07-20-2000 09:55 PM

Re: Lifting Uke --- not!
 
Quote:

Mongo wrote:
Adrin,

Some real good advice that helped me with koshinage (besides lots of practice) was to stop trying to lift uke up. Instead, you should have uke's balance (from the irimi) to the point where uke practically falls over your hips. The position you need to be in for most koshi techniques is difficult at first, but if you practice getting well under uke's center and extending them out over your hips, uke will have no option but to take the fall. As I posted here earlier, Ikeda's sensei's koshinage tape is an excellent place to start !

Good luck!

Mongo [/b]
Mongo,

Thanks! I'll try to make my center lower than that of my uke. But what if my uke is a lot smaller than me? If my center is higher than my uke's then I'd be trying to carry him/her.


- Adrian

[Edited by adriangan on July 20, 2000 at 10:06pm]

Guest5678 07-21-2000 05:54 AM

Re: Re: Lifting Uke --- not!
 
Quote:

adriangan wrote:

Mongo,

Thanks! I'll try to make my center lower than that of my uke. But what if my uke is a lot smaller than me? If my center is higher than my uke's then I'd be trying to carry him/her.

- Adrian

[Edited by adriangan on July 20, 2000 at 10:06pm] [/b]
Adrian,

Vertically challenged uke certainly poses a different problem. Two options are to practice bending the knees more to get as low as possible and still maintain your own center (very hard exercise but rewards are great!) , and the other is to stretch uke further out over the end of your hip. Also remember, momentum is a plus here too. You should be able to do it static first! but after you get better and start to flow, the energy of the movement can be real helpful. Same thing you will always hear, practice, practice, practice! (and get the tape!)

Good luck!

Mongo

Chuck Clark 07-21-2000 08:52 AM

It isn't really necessary to get your center under the uke's center of gravity to make koshi waza.

If uke's balance is broken, the next thing that happens is they either recover their balance or fall. As they try to recover balance tori fits their body to the uke's recovery cycle (keeping the balance broken) so that the hip is taking up space necessary for the uke's recovery. As uke's body just begins to touch tori's hip (even if it is above their center) tori continues turning (keeping close connection) so that uke's leg must thrust causing them to go around the impediment (tori's hip) launching uke into the fall. All you are doing in essence is causing uke to "trip" over/around the tori's hip.

There should be no "lifting" of the hips at all. A tiny sideways motion of the hips is often enough.

Guest5678 07-21-2000 11:11 AM

Quote:

Chuck Clark wrote:
It isn't really necessary to get your center under the uke's center of gravity to make koshi waza.

If uke's balance is broken, the next thing that happens is they either recover their balance or fall. As they try to recover balance tori fits their body to the uke's recovery cycle (keeping the balance broken) so that the hip is taking up space necessary for the uke's recovery. As uke's body just begins to touch tori's hip (even if it is above their center) tori continues turning (keeping close connection) so that uke's leg must thrust causing them to go around the impediment (tori's hip) launching uke into the fall. All you are doing in essence is causing uke to "trip" over/around the tori's hip.

There should be no "lifting" of the hips at all. A tiny sideways motion of the hips is often enough.

Clark sensei,

You are of course, correct as usual. Hip rotation, not lifting! I have had a few problems though with real short uke ( Judy at 5' 1-2'' ) falling more to the side ( looked more like a leg sweep than a koshi) because I couldn't get low enough for uke to fall "over " the hip. They fall "around" the hip. Obviously the results were the same (uke on the ground), but it just didn't feel as clean and connected as when I can get under them..... maybe another 20 years or so I'll get this figured out huh?

PS. I am really looking forward to your visit.

Regards,

Dan Pokorny

Chuck Clark 07-21-2000 12:32 PM

Hi Dan,

I'm looking forward to meeting you and the others in the dojo.

There doesn't need to be much of a lift to stop the flat rotation of uke's fall that you're describing. Tori's timing causes the uke's own leg thrust to create this lift. Again, it doesn't need to be much at all. Once you see and feel it, you'll understand easily.

I'm off to the International Jodo Federation's triennial gasshuku this next week so I'll be "off the boards" from tomorrow until after the 30th. Lots of us from the Jiyushinkan are going and will be getting mega doses of Shinto Muso-ryu.

Later,


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