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-   -   Nikkyo omote or not... (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12801)

arjandevries 06-22-2007 09:55 AM

Nikkyo omote or not...
 
Hi all,

Last night I got a question about nikkyo. "What is the omote?" So I showed them. (as I have learned)
But it started me thinking: What do we call nikkyo? Is it the lock on the wrist (as in nikkyo ura) or is it the lock at the end in suwariwaza. If it is the lock on the wrist, if yes what is it about gyaku hanmi ikkyo then? I was allways told that the lock at the end in suwariwaza is the nikkyo lock. But this one is also performed in for example kotegaeshi.

So, does any one of you fine people have some thoughts on this?

I hope you understand what I mean.

gdandscompserv 06-22-2007 01:40 PM

Re: Nikkyo omote or not...
 
I think I know what you mean and the only answer I can give is "nikyo" refers to the overall technique (second technique or teaching) not the wrist lock itself.

jss 06-22-2007 04:05 PM

Re: Nikkyo omote or not...
 
There is only one thing common to all nikkyos omote and ura and that's the part where it's a lot like ikkyo, but uke's arm is in a vertical position instead of a horizontal one (1) and you control his elbow and the base of his hand in stead of elbow and wrist area.
Then you pin while entering or turning, and control uke in more or less the same way as you'd do after kote gaeshi. (Ironically, if you turn your hand outwards, it's nikkyo; if you turn it inwards, it's kote gaeshi. So why do they end up in the same place?)

The nifty nikkyo ura lock is only there for bonus points. You can replace it with a more ikkyo-like entry if you like, although that's not the orthodox way to do it.

Joep

(1) Of course, uke's wrist should be above his shoulder for leverage, but the arm is more or less horizontal.

tarik 06-22-2007 07:19 PM

Re: Nikkyo omote or not...
 
Quote:

Arjan de Vries wrote: (Post 181602)
Hi all,

Last night I got a question about nikkyo. "What is the omote?" So I showed them. (as I have learned)
But it started me thinking: What do we call nikkyo? Is it the lock on the wrist (as in nikkyo ura) or is it the lock at the end in suwariwaza. If it is the lock on the wrist, if yes what is it about gyaku hanmi ikkyo then? I was allways told that the lock at the end in suwariwaza is the nikkyo lock. But this one is also performed in for example kotegaeshi.

So, does any one of you fine people have some thoughts on this?

I hope you understand what I mean.

Dunno about fine, but my opinion is that in either omote or ura, nikyo is about controlling the center through the nikyo lock.

Most people seem to perform the omote without the nikyo lock and rely on the elbow for control. To me, that is ikkyo with an incidental hand position on the wrist that looks like nikyo, but it is not nikyo as the center is controlled through different means.

Pins are a separate issue and I suggest that you can perform an ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, etc. pin after using an arbitrary ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, etc. technique. What we do in class is usually a rote kata pairing the ikkyo technique with the ikkyo pin, the nikyo technique with the nikyo pin, etc., but a totally arbitrary pairing only intended for learning.

Regards,

arjandevries 06-23-2007 01:13 AM

Re: Nikkyo omote or not...
 
Thanks for the answers so far.

It is not that I don't know how to do nikkyo (as far as you can...:D ) but is gave me some thought of how to explain to my own students the difference between ikkyo and nikkyo. For example: gyuaku hanmi ikkyo and nikkyo omote are the same way preformed exept for the pin at the final stage where with ikkyo the arm is horizontal on the tatami and with nikkyo the arm is vertikal. That is why I asked your opinon about what for you the nikkyo pin is. (or perhaps better, where is it in the technique for you)

Not that I change the way I have learned it but just to discuss it.

Perhaps it is a language thing......

tarik 06-23-2007 01:22 AM

Re: Nikkyo omote or not...
 
Quote:

Arjan de Vries wrote: (Post 181646)
Thanks for the answers so far.

It is not that I don't know how to do nikkyo (as far as you can...:D ) but is gave me some thought of how to explain to my own students the difference between ikkyo and nikkyo.

I don't know nikkyo. I'm passable at nikyo. ;)

Quote:

Arjan de Vries wrote: (Post 181646)
For example: gyuaku hanmi ikkyo and nikkyo omote are the same way preformed exept for the pin at the final stage where with ikkyo the arm is horizontal on the tatami and with nikkyo the arm is vertikal. That is why I asked your opinon about what for you the nikkyo pin is. (or perhaps better, where is it in the technique for you)

That's what I tried to describe. They look the same, but appearances are deceiving, IMO. Ikkyo controls center through the elbow, nikyo controls center through the joint lock at the wrist (not pain). They might look similar in this context, but IMO, they FEEL totally different to uke and control passes through tori to uke through a different connection. An observer who is aware of the difference can easily tell how tori is connected to and controlling center.

Just my point of view. Take it or leave it. :cool: Even most seniors in my old dojo never even thought about it that way at all and simply described the difference much as you do and thought it inconsequential.

Regards,

jss 06-23-2007 05:52 AM

Re: Nikkyo omote or not...
 
Quote:

Arjan de Vries wrote: (Post 181646)
For example: gyuaku hanmi ikkyo and nikkyo omote are the same way preformed exept for the pin at the final stage where with ikkyo the arm is horizontal on the tatami and with nikkyo the arm is vertikal.

Many people would agree with this. Tarik and I don't, but we suggest different solutions. :confused:
My best advice (although it's a bit of a poinoned gift): keep an open and critical mind. You'll find there are lots of other things in aikido that defy logic, but looking for the answers will enrich your aikido.

ps.: With "things that don't make sense", I do not mean aikido should incorporate ground fighthing, aikido's teaching methodology does not work, etc. What I mean is that the aikido that is being transmitted is not a logical, consistent whole and it will remain that way as long as aikidoka fail to read and think for themselves and keep believeing all the foundationless stories that are passed within the aikido community.

Nafis Zahir 06-23-2007 09:45 AM

Re: Nikkyo omote or not...
 
Quote:

Tarik Ghbeish wrote: (Post 181634)
Dunno about fine, but my opinion is that in either omote or ura, nikyo is about controlling the center through the nikyo lock.

Most people seem to perform the omote without the nikyo lock and rely on the elbow for control. To me, that is ikkyo with an incidental hand position on the wrist that looks like nikyo, but it is not nikyo as the center is controlled through different means.

Pins are a separate issue and I suggest that you can perform an ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, etc. pin after using an arbitrary ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, etc. technique. What we do in class is usually a rote kata pairing the ikkyo technique with the ikkyo pin, the nikyo technique with the nikyo pin, etc., but a totally arbitrary pairing only intended for learning.

Regards,

This is such a true statement! I often tell this same thing to many people that I train with. I show them that it is not enough just to have a nikyo or sankyo "hold" without actually applying the nikyo or the sankyo. Incidental contact, such as what you mentioned, does not control the nage, especially when they are very strong. The same thing applies for applying the pin. One should always keep the applicable grip on the joint while making the exchange from one side to the other in order to apply the pin. Likewise, the pin applied without the actual application on a nikyo or sankyo is not well advised.

arjandevries 06-23-2007 11:21 AM

Re: Nikkyo omote or not...
 
I allways say I do kotegaeshi technique with a nikyo pin...:D

This nicely going. Anyone more who has some thoughts about this?

Tambreet 06-27-2007 03:42 PM

Re: Nikkyo omote or not...
 
Quote:

Tarik Ghbeish wrote: (Post 181634)
Most people seem to perform the omote without the nikyo lock and rely on the elbow for control. To me, that is ikkyo with an incidental hand position on the wrist that looks like nikyo, but it is not nikyo as the center is controlled through different means.

I was just training over in Japan, and they did nikkyo omote like this (it looked like ikkyo but with a different hand position). It looks completely different the way we do it here, though, cutting down ikkyo first and then drawing uke back in and applying nikkyo. Interesting, the ura version was the same in Japan as what I'm used to.

I'm not really experienced enough to be able to say which is better, but I agree with you that if just the hand position is different, it doesn't seem like a separate technique.

Dirk Hanss 06-28-2007 03:11 AM

Re: Nikkyo omote or not...
 
Well, just my 2 cts.
When teaching to beginners, my teacher does not point out the differences very much. (Gyaku Hanmi) Katatedori - and katadori) ikkyo and nikyo look quite the same and are done the same, when you get a little bit more advanced and know mainly the footwork, he would tell you that even if it looks the same, in ikkyo (old name ude osae - "elbow control") your control is focussed on the elbow, while in nikyo (old name kote mawashi - "wrist twist") the control is focussed on the kote.

Hope that helps a little bit.

best regards

Dirk

Chikai Aikidoka 06-28-2007 06:21 AM

Re: Nikkyo omote or not...
 
Another 2 cents from a relativly novice view.

Quote:

Tarik Ghbeish wrote: (Post 181648)
... They look the same, but appearances are deceiving, IMO. Ikkyo controls center through the elbow, nikyo controls center through the joint lock at the wrist (not pain).

This is also how I always understood the differences b/w Ikkyo and Nikyo. My understanding is that if the left hand control the elbow and the right hand just grabing uke's wrist while doing the sabaki either Omote or ura .... then it's an Ikkyo technique. If, on the other hand, the right hand is twisting and locking the uke's hand & wrist, then it's a Nikyo.

I always thought the ground pinning at the end was the conclusion to the technique (or part of it) and not the technique itself.

BR

arjandevries 07-01-2007 06:18 AM

Re: Nikkyo omote or not...
 
Everybody does Aikido a little diffenrent. This topic is an example of that.

Thanks for all the replies and have a nice time doing ikkyo and nikyo omote..... :-)

Chikai Aikidoka 07-01-2007 10:42 AM

Re: Nikkyo omote or not...
 
The late Saito ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-ma09rENYM what a gem! Thank you AJ!

check the Shomen uchi Ikkyo omote at 00:55
and the Shomen uchi Nikyo omote at 1:36

right?


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