AikiWeb Aikido Forums

AikiWeb Aikido Forums (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/index.php)
-   AikiWiki (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=77)
-   -   Kaeshiwaza (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12777)

Brian22 06-17-2007 03:21 PM

Kaeshiwaza
 
This is the discussion thread for the AikiWiki article "Kaeshiwaza".

Please add comments below regarding the article.

Brian22 06-17-2007 06:41 PM

Re: Kaeshiwaza
 
Does anyone know about kaeshiwaza. Any DVDs, books or help in understanding. I am fairly new to aikido and am not advanced enough to be taught these techniques, but would like to learn more so that I can understand where the holes are in my technique.

:ai: :ki: :do:

Mark Uttech 06-17-2007 08:47 PM

Re: Kaeshiwaza
 
kaeshiwaza is something that comes 'much' later in a true aikido journey. The basic kihon waza calls for a ten year commitment first.
kaeshi waza is like the third story of a house; kihon waza is the foundation. Do not worry about your openings; you'll find them or they will be revealed to you.
In gassho

Mark

raul rodrigo 06-17-2007 09:21 PM

Re: Kaeshiwaza
 
How long have you been training and what kyu are you now?

Brian22 06-17-2007 10:21 PM

Re: Kaeshiwaza
 
I have been training for two plus years and I am a 4th Kyu.
:ai: :ki: :do:

mathewjgano 06-17-2007 10:31 PM

Re: Kaeshiwaza
 
Quote:

Mark Uttech wrote: (Post 181135)
kaeshiwaza is something that comes 'much' later in a true aikido journey. The basic kihon waza calls for a ten year commitment first.
kaeshi waza is like the third story of a house; kihon waza is the foundation. Do not worry about your openings; you'll find them or they will be revealed to you.
In gassho

Mark

Hi Mark,
I hope you'll forgive me, but I'm not sure I agree. While I do think we probably agree a true neophyte shouldn't practice them, I'm not sure 10 years down the line (which I interpret as your meaning; sorry if I'm wrong) is the best time to introduce that "3rd floor." In my primary dojo, I learned them gradually...usually shortly after I was taught the corresponding technique they're meant to counter, though I'd say they always came after I gained some basic sense of that original technique. At the Shodokan school I attended breifly, they were taught more formally, and I thought it was just as useful as learning them on the fly. In both cases kaeshiwaza was taught to relatively low kyu grades with success, so I think it can really enrich ones training if approached properly.
Take care,
Matt

Yann Golanski 06-18-2007 01:46 AM

Re: Kaeshiwaza
 
We practice it as early as 1st kyu. Generally, any kyu grades will either have seen it during randori or have been taught some of it. It's hardly "advanced".

raul rodrigo 06-18-2007 02:38 AM

Re: Kaeshiwaza
 
There are a few kaeshi waza in Mitsugi Saotome's The principles of Aikido, if you'd like to check it out.

eyrie 06-18-2007 03:01 AM

Re: Kaeshiwaza
 
Whilst I respectfully disagree with the somewhat arbitrary 10 year commitment to kihon, I agree that kaeshi is founded in the foundational principles of kihon. Understand the kihon (and I don't necessarily mean waza), and kaeshi becomes obvious.

Kaeshi waza is based on the same basic principles that are encapsulated in kihon waza, so it is hardly "advanced" in the sense that it requires a certain arbitrary tenure of commitment to kihon.

However, learning kaeshi waza is probably not the best way to understand where the holes in your techniques are. Probably better to learn how the kihon works (or doesn't work) first.

Dirk Hanss 06-18-2007 03:09 AM

Re: Kaeshiwaza
 
Quote:

Brian Rozell wrote: (Post 181131)
Does anyone know about kaeshiwaza. Any DVDs, books or help in understanding. I am fairly new to aikido and am not advanced enough to be taught these techniques, but would like to learn more so that I can understand where the holes are in my technique.

:ai: :ki: :do:

Dear Brian,
you can think of kaeshi waza as something very complicated and advanced training.
And you can think very simple. Every aikido exercise is kashi waza, as ther is an attack, which is reversed by the aikido technique. And nearl every attack in aikido is also part of an aikido technique - some only as supporting atemi.

If aikidoka do not attack, there seems to be no need for countertechniques. First of all the techniques are the same or at least similar in other fight environmants.
But the major reason seems to be improving the technique at high level. If someone knows the technique well enough, it might be wise to think about their remaining weaknesses. That means uke performs intelligent resistence in order to make openings obvious. And teh next step for nage is to learnhow to close these openings.

So yes kaeshi waza is nothing new, but we only call a lesson kaeshi waza, when we do those high level resistence /quality control. At the same time it is nothing else, than training more realistic situations, where you apply your aikido technique, as the 'attack' is not stopping for you in order to do the technique. If your timing for kaeshi is bad, your partner has already done his technique - or if you are too early, he simply changes his techniques a little bit or a bit more - which then turns to henka waza, another new word for something, that is not really new ;)

Best regards

Dirk

Gerry Magee 06-18-2007 05:33 AM

Re: Kaeshiwaza
 
hey guys heres a video of my teacher sensei Coyle he demonstrates some Kaeshiwaza.
Hope its of use.:)
Gerry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Cfvf8aNJyk

aikidoc 06-18-2007 09:40 AM

Re: Kaeshiwaza
 
I periodically integrate kaeshiwaza into a class with mixed ranks. I find by doing so over time, I reinforce the basics and good ukemi and found it helps students with their basics. THe kaeshi does not work well without good basics of ukemi. All the students seem to not only enjoy this because it breaks up kihon practice but they also seem to benefit as well.

CitoMaramba 06-18-2007 02:12 PM

Re: Kaeshiwaza
 
There is a section on Kaeshi-waza in Vol. 4 of Saito Sensei's "Traditional Aikido" series.

Mark Uttech 06-18-2007 03:36 PM

Re: Kaeshiwaza
 
I am always amazed by the folks that disagree with the 'ten year commitment'. I am sure the majority of them haven't gotten to the ten year mark yet. Those of us who have undertaken the 'ten year commitment' after ten years seem to readily understand that 'ten more years' is the next answer.

In gassho,

Mark

Janet Rosen 06-18-2007 06:29 PM

Re: Kaeshiwaza
 
Quote:

Mark Uttech wrote: (Post 181205)
I am always amazed by the folks that disagree with the 'ten year commitment'. I am sure the majority of them haven't gotten to the ten year mark yet.

However we are having it integrated into our classes by instructors with many more than 10 yrs training who clearly think there IS some value in presenting it earlier.

mathewjgano 06-19-2007 12:24 AM

Re: Kaeshiwaza
 
Hi all,
I like a lot of the points that being made. I found as I analyzed the difference between kaeshiwaza and "normal" waza, there really wasn't much difference. I was having a hard time distinguishing the two. As was pointed out, we're always countering something in Aikido...even if we're being proactive. Still, instead of always having control, as I think is the predominant mode of Aikido training (nage is always "winning"), kaeshiwaza is more a practice of sensing an opening through which to recover...isn't it just another technique, further on down the potential timeline? I don't see what's so complicated about it...then again, I'm also relatively inexperienced, so I don't want to sound like I'm trying to be an authority where I shouldn't.
Take it easy,
Matt

MM 06-19-2007 06:58 AM

Re: Kaeshiwaza
 
Quote:

Matthew Gano wrote: (Post 181241)
Hi all,
I like a lot of the points that being made. I found as I analyzed the difference between kaeshiwaza and "normal" waza, there really wasn't much difference. I was having a hard time distinguishing the two. As was pointed out, we're always countering something in Aikido...even if we're being proactive. Still, instead of always having control, as I think is the predominant mode of Aikido training (nage is always "winning"), kaeshiwaza is more a practice of sensing an opening through which to recover...isn't it just another technique, further on down the potential timeline? I don't see what's so complicated about it...then again, I'm also relatively inexperienced, so I don't want to sound like I'm trying to be an authority where I shouldn't.
Take it easy,
Matt

Kaeshi waza really isn't all that special or advanced. If you think about it, every person does kaeshi waza all the time in Aikido practice. If kaeshi waza is exploiting a hole/opening in the other person's attack/technique, then aren't we all doing kaeshi waza right from the very start of the technique?

If you think in terms of "nage" or "tori", then that is the person who typically ends up completing a technique. However, when you literally first start, you aren't nage/tori. You really are uke performing kaeshi waza because you have to receive the attacker's attack with your body and change it to whatever techique you are working on.

As for kaeshi waza itself:

When someone first starts learning aikido, their holes/openings are going to be huge and very apparent. As one progresses, those openings get smaller and not as apparent. Also as one progresses, the ability to find and exploit openings becomes greater.

That's why when a beginner works with an advanced student, the beginner has a hard time performing kaeshi waza while the advanced student does not.

But, when two peers work on kaeshi waza, it's usually a stalemate. When it isn't, it goes back and forth on who completes the reversals. When working with peers, everyone's chance of finding and exploiting an opening are the same. What changes as you advance in rank is your abilities to find more openings and also more options at exploiting them.

I guess there is also a difference in finesse. :) Advanced levels look better.

The complications? Beginners don't have nearly the amount of skills that advanced students have. These include better sensitivity, more relaxed motion, better kuzushi (keeping and taking), more options technique-wise, better at higher speeds, etc.

IMO,
Mark

cguzik 06-19-2007 01:34 PM

Re: Kaeshiwaza
 
Quote:

John Riggs wrote: (Post 181168)
The kaeshi does not work well without good basics of ukemi.

The corollary of course is that ukemi gets better as awareness of suki for potential kaeshi improves.

Mark Uttech 06-19-2007 04:37 PM

Re: Kaeshiwaza
 
I think a good reason for not introducing kaeshi waza too early, is that many beginning students do not understand noncompetition, that is one main reason for the resistance among beginning strudents. Maybe everyone wants to be a champion, the best. But what aikido actually teaches is that everyone becomes a champion.

A competitive mind wants to counter everything. And another competitive mind wants to counter every counter. But when you take another look at the kihon waza, you might begin to study. You might begin to ask: "why that kamae?" Your aikido journey goes on.

In gassho,

Mark

CitoMaramba 06-20-2007 01:52 AM

Re: Kaeshiwaza
 
1 Attachment(s)
Here is what Saito Sensei wrote about Kaeshi-waza in Vol. 4 of Traditional Aikido

Dirk Hanss 06-20-2007 03:56 AM

Re: Kaeshiwaza
 
Quote:

Cito Maramba wrote: (Post 181396)
Here is what Saito Sensei wrote about Kaeshi-waza in Vol. 4 of Traditional Aikido

With all respect to Saito sensei
this sounds rather like a good old Japanese Martial Art fairy tale.
"First I provide you with my super-techniques, which cannot be countered by any opponent. And later you'll get the tool to be undefeatable by any technique, even my own." Wel lhow to solve that paradoxon?
Ther must lots of truth in Saito sensei's statement. To me it sounds like old master behaviour, as it is told of Sokaku Takeda: "You have to pay for every technique, you learn. And you have topay for every technique, you are allowed to teach. And you are not allowed to teach anything without licence, not techniques from other arts, you have learnt before and not self-developped techniques."
And to not appearselfish and money-driven, just wrap it in another story.

Best regards

Dirk

seank 06-20-2007 05:20 AM

Re: Kaeshiwaza
 
We have started playing around a lot with kaeshi waza of recent months at about the time one of our long-time instructors returned.

Whilst I agree it takes time and training to recognise the opportunity, it also has the potential to show up holes in normal waza.

I also believe that there is a kaeshi for every technique, and that it is by properly understanding kihon that these are progressively revealed... but would I suggest you need to train for 10 years to attain this? I'm not sure.

I have been training in Aikido and Kyokushin for over 20 years now and have a pretty good response for many Aikido techniques that are not properly borne of kaeshi waza, but still exploit an opening or poorly performed technique. Do I need to train in Aikido for 10 years to understand and use this?

That said, I know that I cannot attack an experienced Aikidoka at my full ability or try to kaeshi to the same ability because my ukemi is not to the same level. So does this mean that you need to develop your ukemi to effectively kaeshi?

Many points to ponder.

Yann Golanski 06-20-2007 08:00 AM

Re: Kaeshiwaza
 
Quote:

Cito Maramba wrote: (Post 181396)
Here is what Saito Sensei wrote about Kaeshi-waza in Vol. 4 of Traditional Aikido

So, O'Sensei used to train his "leading" students in the art of "martial competition"... Hang on, I though he hated competition as being none-Aikido. *grins evilly*

Kaeshi waza is fun, not dangerous at all and beginners can learn it quiet fast. Every randori match I have, I try to practice kaeshi waza. Sometimes, I even manage to make it work. It's hard but fun.

Sometimes I even teach kaeshi waza while doing randori to lower grades.

eyrie 06-20-2007 05:38 PM

Re: Kaeshiwaza
 
Quote:

Sean Kelleher wrote: (Post 181405)
That said, I know that I cannot attack an experienced Aikidoka at my full ability or try to kaeshi to the same ability because my ukemi is not to the same level. So does this mean that you need to develop your ukemi to effectively kaeshi?

I don't think that is necessarily true, Sean. Having good ukemi can help you grasp the idea intuitively, but there are other ways of learning how to reverse and counter techiques that do not necessarily require "good" ukemi skills. Understanding how a technique works and the ways in which it doesn't work is a good start, for therein lies the opportunities.

SmilingNage 06-22-2007 12:01 AM

Re: Kaeshiwaza
 
Ukemi is one of the principles of kaeshiwaza. Ukemi in of itself is a kind of reversal. As you move your body in accordance with the power and direction of Nage's lead. Not clashing with but absorbing technique. Allowing you to transition to rolling and or high/break falls. Good ukemi will put you in a situation(s) were you can effectively attempt a reversal.

Kaeshiwaza comes to the front of your training when have a change in your mindset about technique. When you change from " this technique is being done to me." to " I am allowing this technique to happen." When technique is no longer "this is being done to me." to "I am part of this interaction." was the start of kaeshiwaza for me. It was part experience, repetition, building up a resilience/tolerance,physical resistance/ conditioning to pain.

No doubt experience, mat time repetition and some physical ability play their parts in contributing to reversals. For me, the best reversals are bred from allowing my ukemi to place me in a situation where a reversal can be pulled off without Nage feeling my intent and it being to late for them to do anything about it. At least thats what I personally strive for, take ukemi so well that it Nage becomes lost in their own technique and application that they no longer feel the "threat" of uke. Then reverse them, send them flying across the mat with the puzzled look on their face.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:12 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.