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eric1235711 06-13-2007 12:27 PM

original quotes in japanese
 
hello

Im looking for an original quote in japanese

I read it in Richard Moon's book, I tried to contact people of his dojo (aikido of marine) by the website's forms, but I didn't get response...

the quote I'm looking for is
Quote:

"Aikido is not an art to fight with enemies and defeat them. It is a way to lead all human beings to live in harmony with each other as though everyone were one family."
I asked to my father to do the traduction but he said that "retraducting" it to japanese can become different of the original one or too strange ...

I hope you can help,

thanks in advance!

akiy 06-14-2007 11:10 AM

Re: original quotes in japanese
 
Although it's not the exact source (ie translating the following phrase won't get you what Richard uses in his book), here's a quote from one of the founder's doka that's along the lines of what you're looking for:

「美しきこの天地の御姿は主のつくりし一家なりけり」

This is often translated as, "The form and beauty that is the world of Heaven and Earth has become one family."

Hope that helps in your search,

-- Jun

eric1235711 06-14-2007 11:41 AM

Re: original quotes in japanese
 
do you find that it's what Moon traducted?

akiy 06-14-2007 11:44 AM

Re: original quotes in japanese
 
Hi Eric,

I really can't tell you the source of the quote in Richard's book. However, as I wrote above, "translating the following phrase won't get you what Richard uses in the book."

-- Jun

eric1235711 06-15-2007 01:15 PM

Re: original quotes in japanese
 
I got a problem :P

I need the source of that quote.

Isn`t there any way to contact Moon?

My father retraducted to japanese, but he's insecure of the result...

well, I need the source. The book i read in portuguese says defense instead of defeat.

isn`t there any site with a list of aikido quotes in japanese?

thanks in advance

Dan Rubin 06-17-2007 03:08 PM

Re: original quotes in japanese
 
Eric

If you Google that quote (and you probably did) you’ll find it all over the place, often with slight variations. These may be variations on how the original could be translated into English. Some of the variations, however, seem to me to be attempts to “improve” earlier English versions.

In the 1978 English translation of the book “Aikido” by Kisshomaru Ueshiba, the quote is:

"Aiki is not a technique to fight with or defeat the enemy. It is the way to reconcile the world and make human beings one family."

In the 1987 book “Abundant Peace” by John Stevens, the quote is:

"Aiki is not an art to fight with or to defeat an enemy. It is a Way in which to harmonize all people into one family."

In the undated “O Sensei Memoirs” by Richard Moon, published sometime after 1994 (www.cityaikido.com/OsenseiMemoirs.pdf), the quote is:

"Aikido is not an art to fight with enemies and defeat them. It is a way to lead all human beings to live in harmony with each other like in a big family."

None of these publications states where this quote originated. Perhaps even the authors don’t know. It may have been something O Sensei wrote, something from one of his lectures, or something he said elsewhere. In other words, I doubt that you’ll be able to find the “original” quote in Japanese, as O Sensei said it.

The versions I’ve found all use the word “defeat.” It’s often difficult to translate from one language to another. Perhaps “Aikido is not an art with which to defend oneself” is a permissible translation to Portuguese.

By the way, why is this so important to you?

Dan

Chris Li 06-17-2007 05:13 PM

Re: original quotes in japanese
 
Here's the original quote in Japanese:

合気とは"Gと戦い、"Gを"jる術ではない。 世界を和合させ、人類を一家たらしめる"ケである。

--- Some of the characters seem to get garbled in the post, you can see the quote online at:

http://sougetukyou.hp.infoseek.co.jp...ounituite.html

Best,

Chris

Dan Rubin 06-17-2007 05:59 PM

Re: original quotes in japanese
 
Hi Chris

I'm impressed that you could find that.

Does that website state when and where that statement was made? And are those O Sensei's own words? And would you say that the various English translations (there are four in this thread) are all reasonable ones?

Dan

Chris Li 06-17-2007 06:35 PM

Re: original quotes in japanese
 
Quote:

Dan Rubin wrote: (Post 181128)
Hi Chris

I'm impressed that you could find that.

Does that website state when and where that statement was made? And are those O Sensei's own words? And would you say that the various English translations (there are four in this thread) are all reasonable ones?

Dan

It's a fairly well known quote, but I don't know where it comes from offhand. There are a large number of very similar phrases in both "Take Musu Aiki" and "Aikido Shinzui". If it's in the 1978 English edition of Kisshomaru's "Aikido" then it's probably in the Japanese version as well.

All of the translations seemed OK to me - they all more or less say the same thing, so far as I can tell. The Japanese uses "yaburu", which is "defeat" or "destroy". For "harmonize" or "reconcile" the Japanese used is "wago", which fits with word (no pun intended).

Best,

Chris

Peter Goldsbury 06-17-2007 07:15 PM

Re: original quotes in japanese
 
'Are they O Sensei's own words?' It is hard to be absoutely sure. Even the Takemusu Aiki lectures were edited by Hideo Takahashi and the Aiki Shinzui discourses were certainly edited (under Kisshomaru Ueshiba's overall direction by the late Sadateru Arikawa). The only direct statements in the Japanese original of Kisshomaru Ueshiba's "Aikido" are selected douka and the interview with two newspaper reporters.

I am an academic and have firsthand experience of the sloppy editorial practices common in Japan, where it seems not to be the rule to acknowledge sources with any precision. This is something I am constantly telling my graduate students and the fact that I am constantly doing it suggests that it is not accepted practice.

Of course, the fact that O Sensei's alleged statements were edited does not mean that he did not make them, and make them exactly as they are recorded. But, as I said, it is hard to be sure.

eric1235711 06-18-2007 08:59 PM

Re: original quotes in japanese
 
thanks, every one!!!

It do not need to be very precisely to the very original word of O Sensei. It just need to be near.

The first one, that Aiky sent was significantly different.

Well, I need it because I want to make a gift. just that.

thanks again

akiy 06-18-2007 11:32 PM

Re: original quotes in japanese
 
Quote:

Eric Kinoshita wrote: (Post 181224)
The first one, that Aiky sent was significantly different.

Yes, I know it was different. As I wrote, "Although it's not the exact source..."

If I had the time, I would have been happy to translate the English text into Japanese. However, having just come back from being in Japan for a couple of weeks, my time has been limited. Besides, as I'm sure that Chris, Peter, and any others who have done English to Japanese (or vice versa) translation can attest to, any sort of a re-translation of a text that was already translated into another language back to its original language will not necessarily even be close to its original. As such, I would have been wary, to say the least, of translating the English back to the Japanese and calling it anything near "what the founder said," not to mention the inaccuracies that may already have been present in the "transcribed" and "original" Japanese text (that Peter pointed out).

In any case, I'm glad you found something that you found helpful in your search.

-- Jun

eric1235711 06-19-2007 08:56 PM

Re: original quotes in japanese
 
Thanks, Thatエs the quote I was looking for...

Just one more question:

Don't you find that "Destroy" stands better than "Defeat" for "Yaburu"?

thanks again. :)


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