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Robyn Johnson 11-12-2001 01:32 PM

"no touch" throw????
 
Hello everyone!

Can someone please describe to me what a "no touch" throw is. What is it about them that some people would think it's fake and some real? Thanks a lot! :D

Robyn :)

shihonage 11-12-2001 01:51 PM

Re: "no touch" throw????
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Robyn Johnson
Hello everyone!

Can someone please describe to me what a "no touch" throw is. What is it about them that some people would think it's fake and some real? Thanks a lot! :D

Robyn :)

There is no apparent physical contact between uke and nage due to nage's skillful leading of uke, so the uke sort of gets himself into the throw because of his intent, and/or while trying to avoid being harmed by nage...

JMCavazos 11-12-2001 03:04 PM

The throw appears fake, because it seems that uke is taking a fall for nage before uke is being touched.

In a full committed attack, an irimi technique can lead to a seriously ugly fall, or the ukemi may be difficult for that particular technique. Uke realizes this and trys to avoid a full irimi technique by going to the fall or ukemi before nage is able to unleash a full body force irimi. To the innocent bystander it appears that uke is falling on his own, and he is - but uke falls to avoid a powerful technique that is coming!

It should go without saying that this is probably more often done by a student who has been studying the art for a while. A newbie will probably unwittingly take the full force and quickly learn why you'd want to take a fall before the technique!

JMCavazos 11-12-2001 03:10 PM

The throw appears fake, because it seems that uke is taking a fall for nage before uke is being touched.

In a full committed attack, an irimi technique can lead to a seriously ugly fall, or the ukemi may be difficult for that particular technique. Uke realizes this and trys to avoid a full irimi technique by going to the fall or ukemi before nage is able to unleash a full body force irimi. To the innocent bystander it appears that uke is falling on his own, and he is - but uke falls to avoid a powerful technique that is coming!

It should go without saying that this is probably more often done by a student who has been studying the art for a while. A newbie will probably unwittingly take the full force and quickly learn why you'd want to take a fall before the technique!

Erik 11-12-2001 06:15 PM

Re: "no touch" throw????
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Robyn Johnson
Hello everyone!

Can someone please describe to me what a "no touch" throw is. What is it about them that some people would think it's fake and some real? Thanks a lot! :D

Robyn :)
It is possible to connect, lead, blend, misdirect someone into a throw. Then there is the "O'Shit, he's gonna take my head off" version or, "the duck, move under uke and uke flies or has a bad knee day." There's a bazillion variations. I suppose you could even argue that kiai could fit into this realm. No touch, has a lot of variations which are quite legitimate.

However, sensei might be doing "no-touch" up the wazzo and if all they are doing it with is 5th kyu's one might look at it with a bit of suspicion. Or, if someone has sufficient awe-power, they can engender even higher ranking students into this mystical no-touch realm. Pretty soon, no one knows what is real.

I'm a lot less militant than some in that I don't mind aiki-dance, I've seen an awful lot of good stuff in that realm, as long as you know it is what you are doing. The problem that I've seen with no-touch is that it can become aiki-dance without anyone realizing it. Then what is fake and what is real starts getting even more blurry than it usually is.

Chocolateuke 11-12-2001 07:12 PM

My step dad had a sensi that could do this. throw without touch he said it was like this:

you are convinced that you are going to launch a succeful attack but then all the sudden you go flying and you wonder how you got there.. a lot of O-Senseis students have similar expirences. its not always OMG hes gonna wipe me out but rather you attack and nage somehow uses your energy and uses it to throw you... I have seen it.. is cool..

Mares 11-12-2001 07:12 PM

"no touch" throw????
 
I think the no touch throw is almost like a faith. I wouldn't attempt it because I have no chance of pulling it off. I have never seen my sempai attempt it and i have never seen my Sensei attempt it. The only time I have seen it in action is from footage of O Sensei. I'm not certain about the 'taking the fall' theory because I've had my Sensei perform some serious Irimi Nage on me and there was touching involved, mainly me gripping on for dear life. I've also seen some of my sempai do ukemi for a 7th dan in some brutal Irimi Nages and again there was touching. That's why I believe there is a bit of faith required. The only "true" no touch throw I've seen is from footage of O Sensei, whether you believe it or not is up to the individual. I'm a believer.

Mares 11-12-2001 07:18 PM

Re: "no touch" throw????
 
P.S. Having said all that, the only no touch throw I've witnessed is when the uke threw a tsuki at Sensei, stepped on the front of his hakama in the process and went into a neat forward roll. :) I think that's called trip waza.

ian 11-13-2001 02:56 AM

I think no touch throws are possible, but only if either;

i. your uke is conditioned to react in a certain way to an approaching fist/strike
or
ii. you can judge uke's response well enough to achieve it.

Ueshiba can be seen to do some 'no-touch' throws. But similarly when you look at him, some ukes are obvioulsy throwing themselves whilst others are not. If you are going to blend with someone, you have to blend with what they do, so if they are throwing themselves that's their stupidity.

I think no touch throws are possible - but only if you are prepared to follow through if the uke does not do the expected reaction. One way to test it is to do it on a complete beginner - this helps you to differentiate between a real response and uke conditioning.

I answered no to the poll, just because most sensei's I have seen do 'no touch' throws, are relying on a conditioned response of uke, which I think cannot be depended upon for people outside the dojo.

Ian

Thalib 11-13-2001 08:33 AM

Following the bouncing ball...
 
True... it could be the uke's training to avoid being hit in such high impact. But the one that I have felt is not because of the fear of being hit. It's almost like being mesmerized, the next thing I know, I was at the ground.

It was like a magnet, I can't seem to break away. I kept following the bouncing ball. When I did break away, everything was empty, that what caused me to fall.

It is a blending of energy or ki, harmonization, or aiki... believe it or not... I have felt it, it's real.

It's easily applied when the uke is not of one mind and body. The uke mind is easily manipulated and thus the body follows.

But if you are of one mind and body, in other conscious of yourself and your surroundings, and extend ki... this type of throw will become much harder to do.

Robyn Johnson 11-13-2001 09:34 AM

Hello!

Thank you to everyone who answered my question! I know what I want to vote in the poll now. Thanks for educating me about this! ;)

Robyn :)

Chuck Clark 11-13-2001 02:16 PM

Some people can "do 'em" and some people "fake 'em".

Regards,

yoshi 11-13-2001 03:02 PM

i think koichi tohei sensei can do it?think i read it somewhere from Aikido And The Dynamic Sphere.
:ki: :ai: :ki: :do:

Mares 11-13-2001 06:46 PM

Stretch out your feelings, use the force. ;)

darin 11-13-2001 11:12 PM

I have done a no touch throw before. Only once. One of the black belt instrutors came at me and I just stepped to the side. He did ukemi then got up. I think he over committed his attack and thus lost his balance.

I have seen instructional videos showing high grade instructors doing obviously no touch or no "effort throws". In most cases the student is jumping with the techniques. But this is an instructional video showing off the style and the instructor's prowess. Hey it worked for Steven Seagal! I have also trained with instructors who do these flashy techniques but they only work on certain students attacking a certain way.

Last week on Japanese TV I saw this Nihon Kempo master do no touch throws to celebrities. He would have them stand between him and his student. Then he would push them across the floor where the student would catch them. After this he would ask the person to try and do something and they couldn't. His explanation was that he was using ki to control the person's mind, body etc. To me it looked like hypnosis. A university professor was in the studio and tried to prove this teacher as a fake which he did successfully. I wonder if anyone else has seen this kind of thing before?

Abasan 11-16-2001 01:07 AM

I tried resisting from posting an entry in this highly debatable subject, but then I couldn't resist asking everyone's opinion of an account i got when training at the recent AAF seminar in singapore. This was told by a black belt who went to practice in hombu dojo the previous year where one of the instructor there demonstrated his 'ki' power. He showed the class that he has a 'ki' ball in his hands, to which he then threw at this black belt guy. Not wanting to embarass the instructor, this fellow proceeded to fall down, apparently being hit squarely by that 'ki' ball. Now, being a straight kinda guy. I would have probably stood there and look surprised if someone threw a 'ki' ball at me (unless of course it actually worked). But the black belt felt it was necessary to take the fall because he thought it would make the rest of his stay there safer. Politics in aikido? :eek:

Going back to the no touch throw. I think I understand somewhat how it could work. If uke was committed and nage had his timing right, he could throw uke's balance off by either a deception or just plain good ol body movement. Harder to pull off if uke was ready for nage's move. I guess, the best time to see this in action is in a good randori. :D
Myself, after seeing Sensei minegishi in action. I hope that i can still move like here when i'm 61. actually i wish i can move like her now! clumsy as i am today, no doubt the no touch throw is out of my realm.

jimvance 11-27-2001 01:39 AM

Tonight's Top Five List
 
Here are some of the "no-touch throws" that I have encountered:

1. One too many beers and an exposed curb.
2. Ice in parking lots. (Like banana peels in cartoons)
3. Having my teacher make me do one for dramatic effect.
4. Pushing on a door that someone pulls open a split second before I touch it.
5. One kiai as tori. (I think I forgot to brush my teeth)

Makes you kind of re-evaluate the term "touch", doesn't it? And who is doing the throwing?

Jim Vance

Creature_of_the_id 11-27-2001 04:00 AM

:)
I liked your story about the Ki balls.
In my view that could still be classed as a no touch throw. The instructor spun the story about the Ki balls and used his presense as an instructor to convince the uke that he should fall down.
had I stood up and done the same thing the Uke would have just stood there, but it took alot of training and building up of a reputation to convince the uke that he had little choice but to fall down.
good technique, worked on for the course of many years ;)

but anyway....

as for no touch throws, I have never pulled one off myself, but I have experienced it before. it was amazing. I have to agree with Thalib that it was more like being mezmirised.
My attack was real, and I think the thing that threw me was my own belief that I was actually going to make contact so my energy kept going and tried to follow him. then he just took it away completely and I flew :)
it was so much fun, and amazing to see someone move like that

Kev


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