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-   -   What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12647)

Tijani1150 05-26-2007 05:44 PM

What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 
I have lately been coming across much boasting by the Brazilian Jujitsu practioners about their grappling techniques and claims that no martial art would stand a chance once you are on the ground how ever there must be more than one Aikido technique which if applied in that second the Brazilian Jujitsu fighter reaches with his hand to grab would neutralize the whole attack so what is it in your opinion?

Aristeia 05-26-2007 05:50 PM

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 
do you imagine yourself being attacked by a BJJer in the near future? If not, what does it matter?

Tijani1150 05-26-2007 06:25 PM

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 
Quote:

do you imagine yourself being attacked by a BJJer
Do I imagine myself being attacked by a BJJer?

Given the rate BJJ is growing at makes the possibility very high in case of any attack.

Quote:

If not, what does it matter?
Learning/exploring and knowing how to deal with different situations dose matter to me and should do to any martial artrist.

Adam Alexander 05-26-2007 06:28 PM

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 
Quote:

Ahmed Altalib wrote: (Post 179355)
I have lately been coming across much boasting by the Brazilian Jujitsu practioners about their grappling techniques and claims that no martial art would stand a chance once you are on the ground how ever there must be more than one Aikido technique which if applied in that second the Brazilian Jujitsu fighter reaches with his hand to grab would neutralize the whole attack so what is it in your opinion?

Strike to the throat or other vital point. Break a finger or wrist. EDIT: Or elbow or shoulder...

Aristeia 05-26-2007 06:33 PM

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 
Quote:

Ahmed Altalib wrote: (Post 179358)

Learning/exploring and knowing how to deal with different situations dose matter to me and should do to any martial artrist.

In that case this is the best piece of advice I can give you. If you want to beat a grappler, you need to learn to grapple. Simple. BJJers train in a different way, with a different mindset and with different goals to most Aikidoka. The result is in a true application they are likely to have more functional tools availible to them. Or it may be better to say their tools have become more functionalised.

Tijani1150 05-26-2007 06:45 PM

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 
Quote:

Michael Fooks wrote: (Post 179360)
In that case this is the best piece of advice I can give you. If you want to beat a grappler, you need to learn to grapple. Simple. BJJers train in a different way, with a different mindset and with different goals to most Aikidoka. The result is in a true application they are likely to have more functional tools availible to them. Or it may be better to say their tools have become more functionalised.

I appriciate your advice Michael however my intention is to hear opinions on how to deal with it from an Aikido perspective I believe Aikido has the tools/techniques to neutralize the whole attack at its begining if applied in good time.

Aristeia 05-26-2007 06:50 PM

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 
this is a bit like a "punchers chance" In other words you have some possibility of success if you get everything just right at just the right time. The chances of that happening in the chaos of a fight is pretty slim.

Adam Alexander 05-26-2007 06:54 PM

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 
Quote:

Michael Fooks wrote: (Post 179362)
this is a bit like a "punchers chance" In other words you have some possibility of success if you get everything just right at just the right time. The chances of that happening in the chaos of a fight is pretty slim.

Not for me...but of course, that all depends on how you train and how you catch on.

Mary Turner 05-26-2007 07:23 PM

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 
I agree, Jean.
If you are relaxed and aware of openings, you can work wrist techniques on an ankle, execute sokomen while lying under an attacker (for example), you can flow and be flexible if you train hard and often.

Renzo Roncal Soto 05-26-2007 07:49 PM

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 
Sprawl and more sprawl, after that, try to break some finger I think (remember that, we do not have rules or judges). They have the same skill that we to protect to complex parts like arms and legs.. Respect to the blows, i believe that the UFC already demonstrated that they are not so efficient with them.
I think that our greater weapon is to always attack his attack (irimi) leaving its trajectory of entrance, always.

PD: And now, to sweeten the situation, How to neutralize to a Aikidoka? :rolleyes:

Michael Varin 05-26-2007 07:51 PM

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 
Quote:

Ahmed Altalib wrote:
I have lately been coming across much boasting by the Brazilian Jujitsu practioners about their grappling techniques and claims that no martial art would stand a chance once you are on the ground how ever there must be more than one Aikido technique which if applied in that second the Brazilian Jujitsu fighter reaches with his hand to grab would neutralize the whole attack so what is it in your opinion?

Try a technique with your knife or sword, any weapon really. The BJJer will be scared and confused, and if he grabs your arm(s) use aikido techniques. . . that's what they are for, if he never attempts to control your arms stab, or cut him repeatedly. (Disclaimer: I do not advocate the use of violence unless it is for self-defense. The above example is for illustrative purposes only.)

Quote:

Michael Fooks wrote:
If you want to beat a grappler, you need to learn to grapple. Simple. BJJers train in a different way, with a different mindset and with different goals to most Aikidoka. The result is in a true application they are likely to have more functional tools availible to them. Or it may be better to say their tools have become more functionalised.

Or you can use your weapon against him. Jujutsu wasn't that important to the samurai. I wonder why?

Murgen 05-26-2007 10:09 PM

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 
First off. Honestly, I doubt any high ranking BJJ is going around looking to submit Aikidoka or picking fights to show off to their friends.. Although I do notice more thug like mentality in some lower rank BJJ practioners.

If your gonna be fighting a BJJ in his game......better learn some BJJ!! I think that is the only way to learn defense and what NOT to do in that situation. If they grab you and take you down your in big trouble. BJJ people have great endurance so don't expect them to tire before you. I think Aikidoka would tire first generally.

Learn to sprawl. Atemi with Knees to the face, elbows etc.. Learn to move (which as an Aikidoka you should be comfortable with). Keep moving is your best defense probably. A good rocking knee to the face as they come in...would probably end it right there. If you miss, your screwed. Eye gouges...ear grabs. Eyes are eyes and soft tissue is soft tissue. Doesn't matter what art you do. If your being attacked and your life is in danger..no holds barred until you feel you can safely deal with the attacker. At that point, no need to be brutal.

Lastly, and this is somewhat tongue in cheek but a criticism I've seen of BJJ. BJJ isn't very effective against more than 1 person! Kind of hard for them to submit you if your buddy is tap dancing on their head with a steel toe boot. BJJ really falls short on the multiple attacker scenario side. At least Aikidoka train for it. Whether you can actually pull it off is another story, but at least Aikido aknowledges that if your attacked it usually is by more than one person in a street situation.

I think overall Aikido is a better package than BJJ in the sense of atemi-waza, flowing movement, multiple attacker scenarios, weapons, and spiritual awareness. After 35....who needs the injuries!! I would be bored and a little uncomfortable rolling around on a mat with a sweaty neanderthal for 2 hours.

Aristeia 05-27-2007 04:10 AM

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 
Quote:

Jean de Rochefort wrote: (Post 179363)
Not for me...but of course, that all depends on how you train and how you catch on.

*sigh* we've been round this block before neh.

Aristeia 05-27-2007 04:13 AM

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 
Quote:

Mary Turner wrote: (Post 179364)
I agree, Jean.
If you are relaxed and aware of openings, you can work wrist techniques on an ankle, execute sokomen while lying under an attacker (for example), you can flow and be flexible if you train hard and often.

Mary, can I ask how many BJJers you've worked out with and what level they were?

Aristeia 05-27-2007 04:15 AM

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 
Quote:

Renzo Roncal wrote: (Post 179366)

PD: And now, to sweeten the situation, How to neutralize to a Aikidoka? :rolleyes:

easy - don't attack :D

Aristeia 05-27-2007 04:22 AM

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 
Quote:

Anthony Towsley wrote: (Post 179369)
BJJ people have great endurance

If only that were true!
Quote:

Eye gouges...ear grabs. Eyes are eyes and soft tissue is soft tissue. Doesn't matter what art you do. If your being attacked and your life is in danger..no holds barred until you feel you can safely deal with the attacker. At that point, no need to be brutal.
It is worth pointing out that the so called "dirty" techniques are going to be much more likely to be delivered by the person dominating position. If you're on the ground that is likely to be the BJJer
Quote:


I think overall Aikido is a better package than BJJ
hmm.....
I would say
Aikido is a better package than BJJ.
I would also say
BJJ is a better package than Aikido.

Which one I would say at any given moment depends on what comes after "and by better, I mean better for......"

Quote:

After 35....who needs the injuries!!
Beleive it or not I and many of my guys have found BJJ to be less injury prone than Aikido
Quote:

I would be bored and a little uncomfortable rolling around on a mat with a sweaty neanderthal for 2 hours.
I'm sure you didn't mean this to be as offensive as it came across?

Amir Krause 05-27-2007 05:04 AM

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 
Sorry, but the question is stupid:
How would he attack you?

There is more then one option for BJJ people to attack, and your response should vary based on the situation. Obviously, you would not like to get to the ground, and keep the fight in the circumstances you are comfortable with.

Note, that standup BJJ is ery similiar to Aikido at least from the technical point, so you could probabl ask the same question of an Aikidoka.

Amir

Chuck.Gordon 05-27-2007 05:36 AM

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 
Quote:

Michael Varin wrote: (Post 179367)
Jujutsu wasn't that important to the samurai. I wonder why?

Well, sort of, not exactly. Jujutsu as practiced in most ryuha was integral to the core art and was usually a subset of techniques within a sword, spear or other armed art. And it was usually practiced ith a weapon in the obi or in the hand as well.

BJJ'ers: BJJ is judo groundwork, refined and simplified. All body arts share a certain set of principles. The techniques may differ, but the principles remain in effect. Remember, gravity is your friend, and if you can, hit 'em with the biggest thing you can -- the earth.

It also helps to learn a little grappling, so that the mat, as well as gravity, becomes your friend ... or at least friendly territory.

dps 05-27-2007 05:40 AM

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 
Quote:

Ahmed Altalib wrote: (Post 179361)
... I believe Aikido has the tools/techniques to neutralize the whole attack at its begining if applied in good time.

Okay, what would you do?

David

Renzo Roncal Soto 05-27-2007 07:01 AM

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 
Quote:

easy - don't attack :D
yea.., make to he attack first ? :p

Quote:

Sorry, but the question is stupid:
How would he attack you?
if it is by strategy, aikidoka would have to attack first.

Quote:

... that standup BJJ is ery similiar to Aikido at least from the technical point
Yes, that is very certain, we are very near relatives, start from a a same technical base, only we have moved away in the form, but the bottom is the same one.

Quote:

so you could probabl ask the same question of an Aikidoka.
certain, and already I did it :cool:

Keith R Lee 05-27-2007 07:47 AM

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 
I think what we really need is some sort of automated bot for the message board. As soon as it detects any sort of "Aikido vs BJJ" post it deletes it then forwards the poster the dozens of threads that already exist on the topic.

--

Anthony:

Quote:

I think overall Aikido is a better package than BJJ in the sense of atemi-waza, flowing movement, multiple attacker scenarios, weapons, and spiritual awareness. After 35....who needs the injuries!! I would be bored and a little uncomfortable rolling around on a mat with a sweaty neanderthal for 2 hours.
One, as Michael said, that's rather insulting. Two, your attitude and comments come across as completely ignorant of what BJJ is all about. I'd also agree with Michael in that I have found there to be far fewer injuries in BJJ than Aikido.

In regards to the question at hand, who cares? Why is someone trained in BJJ going to "attack" you? How are the going to attack you? It's not like there is one singular attack that BJJers perform. I'm assuming your actually asking: "what should I do when a guy shoots in for my legs?" The answer is: go to a BJJ/MMA/Sambo/Wrestling gym and they'll show you what to do (short answer: sprawl, whizzer, knees to the face). You'll get a basic understanding of what to do, be satisfied with that. However be aware that, more than likely, if someone wants to take you down, they will. If the the person going for the shoot grew up wrestling here in the States, forget it, game over, they are taking you down.

jennifer paige smith 05-27-2007 09:14 AM

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 
Quote:

Michael Fooks wrote: (Post 179360)
In that case this is the best piece of advice I can give you. If you want to beat a grappler, you need to learn to grapple. Simple. BJJers train in a different way, with a different mindset and with different goals to most Aikidoka. The result is in a true application they are likely to have more functional tools availible to them. Or it may be better to say their tools have become more functionalised.

In the early part of the latter century there was an intense and rivalrous competition between Brazilian Jujitsu and Japanese Jujitsu. The Brazilians had been practicing in realtive isolation, developing jujitsu to meet their own culture and standards, boasting all the while that they were undefeatable. A match was finally called between the Brailiain team and the Japanese team headed by a sensei named Kimura. After rounds and rounds among the sempai, some leading to near death and broken bones, all appeared to be realtively equal. The event culminated in a fight between Kimura and the Brazilian Teacher that almost lead to death in the first match. The match was stopped. It was restarted just a short while later. In the middle of the heated match, after everything else was exausted The Japanese Sensei then brought out his secret signature move and pinned the Brazilian on his back to the floor and the won the match with that one move. The move is now referrred to as the 'Kimura' and is the backbone of many practicioners repetoir.Essentially it is still a 'signature' winning move in BJ or JJ. The Brazilians adapted it to their form and others to theirs; if they know to look for the move. It is in the essence of the Japanese Arts that this move emerged.

So, I have two thoughts:
Thought one: The answer to the original thread question woud be,in essence, The Kimura and the functioning properties of Japanese Arts as emerged from the land.

Thought Two:
Our reasoning and method for training, as it is generationally passed down from the founder and his diciples, is to learn to Co-Exist not to Compete. They have very different end purposes and the way we practice the same moves as say, The Kimura, lead to a larger effect than winning a Brazilian. It leads to the possibility that we can, of whatever origin, Co-Exist with the Brazilians ( or name your favorite country ........here) based on unversal principles of nature that bind us all on this earth. If you ( One) end your mind at the thought of fighting and winning then you (one) also end your mind at the thought of death. Very un-samurai and very un-alive way to 'progress' in this mortal plane.

Domo Arigato Gozaimashita,

jen

Nafis Zahir 05-27-2007 09:27 AM

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 
Quote:

Ahmed Altalib wrote: (Post 179355)
I have lately been coming across much boasting by the Brazilian Jujitsu practioners about their grappling techniques and claims that no martial art would stand a chance once you are on the ground how ever there must be more than one Aikido technique which if applied in that second the Brazilian Jujitsu fighter reaches with his hand to grab would neutralize the whole attack so what is it in your opinion?

I believe the best way to deal with them is on the ground. So I would use any technique from suri-waza.

jennifer paige smith 05-27-2007 09:34 AM

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 
I got kicked off by the administrator for taking too long with my thoughts ( oh well:rolleyes: ).
I wanted to add that the 'Brazilian' is Heloi Gracie.

and here is a link of the final match

:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH1eN...elated&search=

and here is a link of a Kimura Documentary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkDBflFtPIw

Domo!

paw 05-27-2007 09:45 AM

Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker
 
Quote:

Jennifer Smith wrote: (Post 179391)
In the early part of the latter century there was an intense and rivalrous competition between Brazilian Jujitsu and Japanese Jujitsu. The Brazilians had been practicing in realtive isolation, developing jujitsu to meet their own culture and standards, boasting all the while that they were undefeatable. A match was finally called between the Brailiain team and the Japanese team headed by a sensei named Kimura. After rounds and rounds among the sempai, some leading to near death and broken bones, all appeared to be realtively equal.

"near death" is a exaggeration imo.

Quote:

Jennifer Smith wrote: (Post 179391)
The event culminated in a fight between Kimura and the Brazilian Teacher that almost lead to death in the first match. The match was stopped. It was restarted just a short while later.

I don't believe that's accurate. Helio Gracie had a match with Masahiko Kimura, and I believe this is what you are referring to. The match ended after Gracie's side threw in the towel during the second round (The total match time was over 13 minutes). It should be noted that Kimura was significantly younger and larger than Gracie at the time of the match. Also Helio himself did not submit, despite having his arm broken during the match.

There were rounds, although I do not know the length of the round (I would presume 10 minutes). I don't believe the match was stopped for any reason inbetween rounds. Also Kimura had publically stated that if Gracie lasted longer than 3 minutes Gracie should consider himself the winner.

Regards,

Paul


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