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ian 11-01-2001 06:37 AM

Thunder, fire water etc
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Greg Jennings

o Someone's aikido out there might be passive, but the aikido I study certainly is not. Our philosophy is to always try to dictate. We do this by playing on whatever inclination it is that the other guy demonstrates.

It reminded me of Ueshiba saying something like, if someone strikes you with thunder defend with thunder, if he strikes with fire, respond with fire etc etc.(I think it is on 'Budo')

What do you (Greg) and what does Ueshiba mean? Any ideas?

The message I get is that if someone strikes you very hard, you can (in-deed have to) throw them very hard ('cos the energy is behind it). Alternatively if someone is very soft you can (in-deed have to) throw them softly.

Thoughts?

Ian

chezmike 11-09-2001 08:51 PM

Physical laws
 
I've read some ideas that indicate physical laws must be involved. In essence: force = mass X resistance, and when Sir Newton is moving, he wants to stay moving. To me this shows that blocking an attack is meeting force with force creating an 'unnatural' situation of twice the force. If resistance is 0, then force becomes 0, and Sir Newton goes right on by as you tenkan (or in some cases flat to his back, face, etc.).

Thomas Jefferson said "In matters of fashion, bend like a reed. In matters of principle, stand like a rock." To me, this epitomizes my Aikido study in that Uke's attack is received and I bend, but I stay in my center, my rock.

The best option in essence is the 'win - win' option where neither nage nor uke is hurt. I know how to hurt, to attack, to apply force. I learn Aikido to respond to those who would attack, and subdue them in a way that negates harm to me and the attack. Now and then if the learning curve is flat, nikyo, sankyo, shiho, higigi, and other 'pain techniques' seem to be effective, but the end result is the same: stop attacking!.

You can't predict the lightning, but you can predict the thunder after the lightning strikes. Uke gets to be lightning, Nage thunder.

Sid 11-10-2001 11:56 AM

Re: Physical laws
 
When I read this, Chinese 5 element philosophy came to mind - where one element destroys or creates another. For example, wood is destroyed by metal and created by water. Is this applicable?

As a side-note, you can see this in hsing-yi, another internal art. If you are attacked with the metal form from hsing-yi, you can defend with fire.

Sid

Thalib 11-13-2001 07:24 AM

Could be...
 
Hmmm...

From what I understand, the ultimate technique in aikido is not to disrupt the natural order of the universe (be one with the universe). Although this is esoteric in a way, it does make sense in the physiological world.

If there is a hint of force from one, the opposing side will try to negate it by using an equal maybe bigger opposite force, Therefore conflict occurs.

If there's lightning, let it hit the ground. If there's thunder, let the sound disperse through the sky. If there's water, let it flow. If there's fire, let it burn.

But, fire could destroy if not put out. Very true. But what is the best way to put out a fire? No, it's not water. Deprive fire of air and it will be put out. This means a vacuum.

Aikido is actually about neutralization. A person falls or got thrown is actually only a side effect, not the main purpose. Neutralization means putting out the fire or grounding the electricity (thunder).

An aikidoka is that vacuum, that ground, or the ocean that the water will eventually flow into. Dispersing the negative energy into the universe, letting yang meets the ying, so there will be harmony.

As we are all still a beginner in understanding the universe itself, we cannot easily be what was written in the analogy above. So we have to let the fire burn out, let the lightning run its course, and let the water flow as it must. Hence the harder the attack, the harder the attacker falls, because the attacker must flow as the attacker must.

[Censored] 11-13-2001 04:24 PM

If there is a hint of force from one, the opposing side will try to negate it by using an equal maybe bigger opposite force, Therefore conflict occurs.

Quite right.

If there's lightning, let it hit the ground. If there's thunder, let the sound disperse through the sky. If there's water, let it flow. If there's fire, let it burn.

Not quite right. If you do not change it slightly, the threat may remain. If you let the attacker do exactly what they want, there is a chance they will succeed.

An aikidoka is that vacuum, that ground, or the ocean that the water will eventually flow into. Dispersing the negative energy into the universe, letting yang meets the ying, so there will be harmony.

As we are all still a beginner in understanding the universe itself, we cannot easily be what was written in the analogy above.


Or it may be a poor analogy. :)

So we have to let the fire burn out, let the lightning run its course, and let the water flow as it must. Hence the harder the attack, the harder the attacker falls, because the attacker must flow as the attacker must.

From the universe's point of view, there is no negative energy. The universe doesn't much care if you live or die. Is there such a thing as too much harmony for practice? Yes, if you are egotistical, or you prefer life to death.

Thalib 11-13-2001 06:24 PM

The universe balances out...
 
From the universe's point of view, there is no negative energy.

Actually, the universe is all about balance: protons and electrons, matter and anti-matter, light (visible) matter and dark (invisible) matter, the polar north and the polar south (of the magnet), all the gravitational pull of the celestial bodies balancing out, and so on.

All energy can't be positive and all energy can't be negative, in order for the energy to flow. It's nothing esoteric actually, just simple physics.

Not quite right. If you do not change it slightly, the threat may remain.

The comment above is true if it was only based on the paragraph commented alone. But it's not finished yet, it corresponds with the next two paragraphs on the previous posting.

The only way I can see that one has to change the course of the threat is that if one is going head to head with the oncoming force.

Instead of trying to put out the fire by water or something else, deprive it of air. Be a lightning rod, if you must, for the lightning.

Yes it is actually a poor analogy, but it is actually the analogy that just popped into mind using the elements. Just hope that some reader could relate.

If you let the attacker do exactly what they want, there is a chance they will succeed.

If one follows the analogy that was written, the attacker will succeed into emptiness.

[Censored] 11-13-2001 07:30 PM

Re: The universe balances out...
 
From the universe's point of view, there is no negative energy.

Actually, the universe is all about balance: protons and electrons, matter and anti-matter, light (visible) matter and dark (invisible) matter, the polar north and the polar south (of the magnet), all the gravitational pull of the celestial bodies balancing out, and so on.

All energy can't be positive and all energy can't be negative, in order for the energy to flow. It's nothing esoteric actually, just simple physics.


Let me put it differently. An attack on an Aikidoka (or anyone else) is not equivalent to negative energy, and the response of an Aikidoka is not equivalent to positive energy.

"Balance" and "harmony" sound quite nice, but they don't come cheap.

Not quite right. If you do not change it slightly, the threat may remain.

The comment above is true if it was only based on the paragraph commented alone. But it's not finished yet, it corresponds with the next two paragraphs on the previous posting.

The only way I can see that one has to change the course of the threat is that if one is going head to head with the oncoming force.


IME, the most dangerous threats tend to change their own course to meet you. And if you don't match and lead the changes...goodnight.

Instead of trying to put out the fire by water or something else, deprive it of air. Be a lightning rod, if you must, for the lightning.

I decline :)

Yes it is actually a poor analogy, but it is actually the analogy that just popped into mind using the elements. Just hope that some reader could relate.

I was referring to Ueshiba's quote, not yours.

If a boxer walked in to an Aikido school and said "you gotta fight fire with fire", nearly everyone would hold them in contempt. But change it to "strikes with fire, respond with fire," and it becomes the enlightened teaching of a true master? ;) :confused: :rolleyes:

ian 11-14-2001 04:28 AM

Interesting final point Chris! Never thought of it like that, but I think you may be right, and I think you're right Sid about the 5 element thing; thats what struck me as strange with Ueshibas comments, because he suggests you respond with fire if attacked with fire.

However I wasn't trying to get all esoteric, I was just presuming 'fire' meant a strong attack. You see, I have always thought if the attack is strong, you can use soft technique; however if the attack is weak, you have to use force (i.e. if an attacker just stands there in randori, you have to give them a slap to initiate movement).

Ian

Thalib 11-14-2001 11:06 AM

I see...
 
Well... I am still a beginner at this... then again I will always be a beginner for the rest of my life. Truly understanding Aikido priciples will take my lifetime.

I just wrote what I've experienced... maybe I have expressed it wrongly. And if it raised some eyebrows... I do apologize.

In my experience, in trying to just redirect an attack is damn hard (especially if the uke is of one mind and body... heheheh right Ran-chan?).

After training a few times with people from ki no kenkyukai... it struck me. When I try to do the technique that I've learned, nothing happened. They look relaxed, but they're actually strong.

Wanting to throw the attacker, wanting to hurt
the attacker, wanting to redirect the attacker, wanting to defeat the attacker, or basically trying to force our will into the attacker will end up in the exertion of physical power and our ki can't flow.

You must throw those negative wills away. There is ki in the attack, weak for the untrained, but when trained well, the ki could be very strong. Trying to redirect a flowing ki is very tiring, takes a lot of energy to do it, even physical power at times (when I get frustrated).

From what little I've learned and understand is that letting the attack run its course and let it deplete itself of energy then doing whatever technique it is that wants to be done is really energy saving and I could go on and on without getting tired for quite a while.

But if we see the attack is really dangerous to us and the surrounding, we could stop it by depleting the energy of the attack first and then we could do whatever technique we want. This is what was meant by the vacuum and the lightning rod. The attacker's ki becoming empty and we could fill it with our own ki or the ki of the universe if we wishes.

It's quite a difficult concept for me to understand, but I could only feel it not think it. I feel redirecting alone creates conflict.

When one has the determination to reach a destination, redirecting will take some force. But when one has nowhere to go to, redirecting will take the least necessary force.

When the attacker becomes empty because the attack has run its course or we deplete it of its ki, the attacker is in need of a direction. We'll just give it to him, by using techniques or otherwise.

This was the point that I've tried to reach with the vacuum (space) and the lightning rod analogy.

Boy this is a long post...

I agree that "responding with fire" is not "striking with fire". I believe in "responding with fire" means one must believe in oneself and very determined to end the conflict. No physical contact need to occur unless it is necessary. Fire is often used to describe determination in eastern culture.

One does response softly and relaxingly to a strong attack in aikido. But that doesn't mean vice versa. Be careful of the soft and relaxing attack that is actually the strongest type of attack you could encounter. Unless of course if the attacker is just lazy or weak.

And you don't have to slap anybody to initiate any movement. A person that just stands not of one mind and body could be easily thrown of balance (right Ran-chan? heheheheh). But if that person is of one mind and body, you have to be soft and relaxed to let the ki flow in order to be able to enter that person.

I am still a beginner in this subject matter, I only write what I've experienced (which is not much I tell you). I hope I haven't offended anyone by this. If I did, then please accept my apology.

ian 11-15-2001 06:47 AM

Thanks Iriawan,

no need to be so self-deprecating - I found that very informative and inciteful. The question is, can I put what I know into practise?

:confused:

Ian


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