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-   -   kendo, Iaido and aikido (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12430)

pugtm 04-23-2007 02:54 PM

kendo, Iaido and aikido
 
Im a kendoka thinking about taking aikido. So i have some question first of all will it help me at all either way. Two should i just focus on one disciplin or both. I also heard that you need to learn kendo for aikido so i was just wondering. Oh yeah one more question assuming i am taking it how long does it take to master the basics and really get into it? For example in kendo it will take two years for me to get bogu and actaully start sparring but in Iai i got into it pretty quickly. Also will i need a new gi and hakama or will i be able to use my kendogi?
Please excuse me if i am not coming across clearly or if i appear ignorant. i have no knowledge of aikido so i thought i would ask.

ChrisMoses 04-23-2007 03:13 PM

Re: kendo, Iaido and aikido
 
While many aikido dojos do some 'swordwork' none require kendo training. If you've learned the kendo no kata however, this will make picking up aiki-ken a relative breeze. For equipment, you'll most likely need to get a judo-gi, most places have people train without hakama until shodan. As for getting the basics and doing aikido, you will be able to participate in every aspect of aikido class much faster than you do in kendo. There isn't the same hanging out in the back of the room doing suburi like you see in kendo. In a couple months, you'll be in the thick of things with everyone else.

Kent Enfield 04-23-2007 05:56 PM

Re: kendo, Iaido and aikido
 
Two years to get into bogu? That's a long time, even by conservative standards.

Anyway, as a kendo person, there's a very good chance that, while you'll probably find the aikiken--whatever flavor you're doing--waza interesting, you'll be frustrated with their practitioners. Aikido "swordwork" tends not to be. It tends to be an exercise using a prop for developing certain traits that are useful in taijutsu.

From a kendo perspective, a lot of aikido sword work is slow, over-powered, and full of openings. You'll have to resist the urge to lop off your partner's hands or to just tsuki them as they step forward. Of course, when it comes time to be uke for tachi dori, you can have a lot of fun. ;)

Aikido people who have sword training outside aikido tend to have less of these problems, and there are some lines of aikido weapons that are a lot better with regard to the above than others, so you may find yourself pleasantly surprised. But then you might not.

pugtm 04-23-2007 07:10 PM

Re: kendo, Iaido and aikido
 
Quote:

Christian Moses wrote: (Post 176377)
As for getting the basics and doing aikido, you will be able to participate in every aspect of aikido class much faster than you do in kendo. There isn't the same hanging out in the back of the room doing suburi like you see in kendo.

Well its not that bad im generally doing kirikaishi with other people and it is only that strict because our sensei's are all from japan. But im glad to hear it'll proceed a little faster than that. Is there anything else i should know as a newcomer or anything special i need to do?

raul rodrigo 04-23-2007 09:29 PM

Re: kendo, Iaido and aikido
 
Quote:

Kent Enfield wrote: (Post 176388)
Anyway, as a kendo person, there's a very good chance that, while you'll probably find the aikiken--whatever flavor you're doing--waza interesting, you'll be frustrated with their practitioners. Aikido "swordwork" tends not to be. It tends to be an exercise using a prop for developing certain traits that are useful in taijutsu.

From a kendo perspective, a lot of aikido sword work is slow, over-powered, and full of openings. You'll have to resist the urge to lop off your partner's hands or to just tsuki them as they step forward. .

When my friend who was taking kendo took a look at our aiki ken, he had the same comments: full of openings and "illogical" moves that make sense only if you are trying to develop an analogous move for taijutsu. and certainly none of us had the sheer speed that he had developed.

pugtm 04-23-2007 10:26 PM

Re: kendo, Iaido and aikido
 
tachi dori? can someone please explain what that means??
But still im glad to hear that ill have at least some of an advantage.
also another question how bad is being thrown on your back and head both me and my parents are kinda worried about that.

Ecosamurai 04-24-2007 05:45 AM

Re: kendo, Iaido and aikido
 
Hi Avi,

I practice aikido, kendo and iaido and find them all very complimentary (though I don't have as much time as I would like to do all these things).

Aikido swordwork as has been said is quite different from kendo and should best be viewed as a method for learning body movement.

Not sure why it took you so long to get some bogu. My teacher is Japanese and had me wearing bogu after only a few months.

It's very common for people to practice both Aikido and Iaido or Kendo and Iaido. Aikido and Kendo seems to be a little less common. I think it's probably because aikido people aren't interested in 'competition' or 'fighting' on the whole and kendo people are less interested in aikido because they want to learn sword work more than anything else. FWIW I find that the most rewarding and informative combination for me has been aikido and kendo, and I'm glad there was no iaido dojo here when I went looking for one (which is how I ended up in kendo).

Regards

Mike

Ecosamurai 04-24-2007 05:47 AM

Re: kendo, Iaido and aikido
 
Quote:

Avi Feygin wrote: (Post 176407)
how bad is being thrown on your back and head both me and my parents are kinda worried about that.

It's fine. Your sensei will teach you how to fall so you don't hurt yourself. If you fall on your head you're doing it wrong and it means you should listen to your sensei more ;)

Mike

pugtm 04-24-2007 07:16 AM

Re: kendo, Iaido and aikido
 
ok and what is the meaning of tachi dori?

Dan Reynolds 04-24-2007 07:29 AM

Re: kendo, Iaido and aikido
 
Tachidori is "sword taking"

Beard of Chuck Norris 04-24-2007 09:49 AM

Re: kendo, Iaido and aikido
 
I do kendo and aikido too.

You'll probably feel awkward as hell at first but there will be lots of nice *clicks* in the brain when you see the same principals applied across the two.

BTW you don't wear hakama to begin with at aikido, get a judo or aikidogi as suggested as the kendogi will not last!

I wish you luck

Peace and love

Jo

Paulo Barreto 04-24-2007 10:10 AM

Re: kendo, Iaido and aikido
 
AikiWiki description of TachiDori at http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/Tachidori.:

The practice of taking away an attacker's bokken/bokuto while empty-handed.

pugtm 04-24-2007 10:54 AM

Re: kendo, Iaido and aikido
 
Quote:

Jo Duncan wrote: (Post 176445)
as the kendogi will not last!

Why do you say that its a new kendogi and its lasted through several months of iaido and kendo.

Ecosamurai 04-24-2007 10:58 AM

Re: kendo, Iaido and aikido
 
Quote:

Avi Feygin wrote: (Post 176452)
Why do you say that its a new kendogi and its lasted through several months of iaido and kendo.

Well for one thing beginners generally don't wear hakama in aikido, the iaido and kendo keikogi have no trousers/pants so unless you want to walk around wearing just the jacket...

The other thing is. How many times at kendo or iaido have you had someone grab your keikogi and pull you around like that. The himo just don't last that sort of punishment, they tend to get ripped off. In aikido people will be holding onto you and tugging the keikogi a lot and kendogi are just not made to absorb that sort of punishment.

Regards

Mike

Edward 04-24-2007 11:54 AM

Re: kendo, Iaido and aikido
 
Well, I did Kendo for a few months and did find it full of illogical moves as well. First the stance is directed forward with the back foot positioned at an awkward angle which makes it very difficult to face several opponents. Second, they attack like crazy and in a very violent and aggressive way. Third, after they strike (hit or miss) they keep on trotting like a horse for a few meters which I found kind of strange.

Just trying to make a point here. Do not look at a martial art with the eyes of another. Each has its own perspective. As for me I quickly lost interest in Kendo as I found out it wouldn't be possible to study kata until a later stage (my main reason for joining in the first place), every body seemed very centered on competitions so I just quit.

Quote:

Raul Rodrigo wrote: (Post 176402)
When my friend who was taking kendo took a look at our aiki ken, he had the same comments: full of openings and "illogical" moves that make sense only if you are trying to develop an analogous move for taijutsu. and certainly none of us had the sheer speed that he had developed.


Ron Tisdale 04-24-2007 11:55 AM

Re: kendo, Iaido and aikido
 
Do people grab your kendogi, twist it, try to throw you with it, etc.?

There was this REALLY big guy in one of the dojo I trained at...he must have been about 240, and really stable. Anywho...I went to do iriminage (poorly, I might add) off of a lunge punch. Well, I ended up doing iriminage to his dogi jacket...but not much else! Ripped it right off his body. But he was still standing there, wondering why it had gotten cool all of a sudden.

Best,
Ron ;)

pugtm 04-24-2007 04:05 PM

Re: kendo, Iaido and aikido
 
Quote:

Edward Karaa wrote: (Post 176459)
As for me I quickly lost interest in Kendo as I found out it wouldn't be possible to study kata until a later stage (my main reason for joining in the first place), every body seemed very centered on competitions so I just quit.

what school did you go to? kendo kata and competitive kendo is almost always taught side by side. Also what you may have been looking for is Iaido or battojutsu which is only kata's and no competition. Kendo in itself is not a real martial tradition its more like a training regimen because during the shogunate swordsmanship was becoming too fanciful and it needed a down to earth training and conditioning system.
Quote:

Mike Haft wrote: (Post 176454)
The other thing is. How many times at kendo or iaido have you had someone grab your keikogi and pull you around like that. The himo just don't last that sort of punishment, they tend to get ripped off. In aikido people will be holding onto you and tugging the keikogi a lot and kendogi are just not made to absorb that sort of punishment.
Mike

I didn't consider that, thanks
You guys should make a sticky for beginners with info like this. It's nice to be able to know something prior to entering the dojo and having that awkward phase were the sensei has to explain every little detail.

MikeLogan 04-24-2007 09:16 PM

Re: kendo, Iaido and aikido
 
Welcome, Avi. I guess that's the point of Aikiweb, to provide a bit of info not otherwise as readily provided just prior to entering the dojo of a an art new to oneself. I hope you find a great deal of information during your investigation of aikido, whether it's for a year or ten.

My primary reason for replying is that I'd love to get into kendo. Circumstances deter my involvement in aikido to a level I very much regret, and I find myself wondering whether this might be an opportunity to see what kendo might offer for myself.

Does Aikiweb have a counterpart web community in the kendo world?

It seems to me that the closest game in town(vineland, south NJ), is in Philadelphia. I suppose I'd take my own advice in the past, and look at the threads listed at the bottom of the screen to view related threads.

good luck,
michael.

Kent Enfield 04-25-2007 12:38 AM

Re: kendo, Iaido and aikido
 
Quote:

Mike Logan wrote: (Post 176499)
Does Aikiweb have a counterpart web community in the kendo world?

If it were a snake, it'd bite you.

Kendo World

pugtm 04-25-2007 08:46 AM

Re: kendo, Iaido and aikido
 
Quote:

Mike Logan wrote: (Post 176499)
Welcome, Avi. I guess that's the point of Aikiweb, to provide a bit of info not otherwise as readily provided just prior to entering the dojo of a an art new to oneself. I hope you find a great deal of information during your investigation of aikido, whether it's for a year or ten.

thanks for the reception

Quote:

Mike Logan wrote: (Post 176499)
My primary reason for replying is that I'd love to get into kendo. Circumstances deter my involvement in aikido to a level I very much regret, and I find myself wondering whether this might be an opportunity to see what kendo might offer for myself.

Kendo is a lot of fun and very difficult. It is very different than most other martial arts and a lot less people stay. Im not trying to sound tough but the drop out rate is very high despite the fact that most took other martial arts prior to taking kendo. Finding a dojo alone is a lot tougher than finding an aikido dojo. Of course that is because there are only 8 million kendoka in the world most of whom are in japan. It is a lot of hard work and conditioning and a heck of a lot of fun. My life even outside of kendo really improved when i started kendo. for example my reflexes improved by leaps and bounds and so has my endurance and leg and arm strength(you try doing a 100 suburi a day and youll feel it too!)
Try if you can to get a Japanese kendoka sensei and also don't take kumdo(korean kendo) there is a huge difference.
ALSO 1 very important thing make sure you want to take KENDO and not IAIDO the two are very different. IAIDO or Battojutsu is the art of drawing the sword and then using it. It is entirely kata's and not actual sparring wereas kendo has 10 kata's but they are for teaching the basics of kendo. I take setei Kendo IAI and muso shinden Ryu and kendo at the same time since my dojo teaches both kendo and Iaido.

Quote:

Mike Logan wrote: (Post 176499)
Does Aikiweb have a counterpart web community in the kendo world?

Yes kendo world is there but it is only a forum. What it is part of is the Kendo World magazine whose website has a ton of info. But to find a dojo you should visit the All united states kendo federation and also your regional kendo federation, AND do a google search. That is very important since it is so traditional we kendoka have not embraced the web all that well. Something i hope to change when i get higher ranks hopefully. My username on kendo world by the way Is pugtm.

Quote:

Mike Logan wrote: (Post 176499)
It seems to me that the closest game in town(vineland, south NJ), is in Philadelphia. I suppose I'd take my own advice in the past, and look at the threads listed at the bottom of the screen to view related threads.

Im not sure what youre trying to say

also remember to ask around on kendo world many people know a lot more than me.

Rod Yabut 04-25-2007 01:17 PM

Re: kendo, Iaido and aikido
 
Jun - how about a new poll?

Aikidokas who practice a second or third martial art and what art it is?

I started looking through the poll history from the bottom up and couldn't get past 2002 without my eyes blurring. I apologize if this was done before.

Avi, does your Kendo practice inlcude ZKNR?

Haowen Chan 04-25-2007 01:43 PM

Re: kendo, Iaido and aikido
 
Quote:

Avi Feygin wrote: (Post 176479)
Try if you can to get a Japanese kendoka sensei and also don't take kumdo(korean kendo) there is a huge difference.

Kumdo is equivalent to Kendo, it's the same kanji, they use the same rules, they compete in the same championships... hell the Koreans won the last WKC (men's team).

You may be thinking of something else.

p00kiethebear 04-25-2007 03:10 PM

Re: kendo, Iaido and aikido
 
A year ago I would have said do both.

Now I'm not so certain.

It may be prudent to, instead of taking up a second art, invest more time into the one you're already studying. If you've got lots of time on your hands to train, go ahead and take Aikido too. But if you're strapped for time and serious about development in kendo, you should focus on that. You can always take up Aikido later. you have the rest of your life to explore new arts.

Aikido will come easier if you already have a firm grounding in sword art.

p00kiethebear 04-25-2007 03:11 PM

Re: kendo, Iaido and aikido
 
Quote:

Kumdo is equivalent to Kendo, it's the same kanji, they use the same rules, they compete in the same championships...
All the kumdo I've seen has involved live blades and tameshigiri. Nothing like kendo. Was I seeing something else?

pugtm 04-25-2007 04:19 PM

Re: kendo, Iaido and aikido
 
Quote:

Rod Yabut wrote: (Post 176567)
Avi, does your Kendo practice inlcude ZKNR?

Jodo? no ours does not.
Quote:

Howard Chan wrote: (Post 176569)
Kumdo is equivalent to Kendo, it's the same kanji, they use the same rules, they compete in the same championships... hell the Koreans won the last WKC (men's team). You may be thinking of something else.

No i am thinking about kumdo. i thought i would have to go to toronto for the summer and the closest dojo was a kumdo dojo so i asked Ichimura-sensei(my main one). he said there is a major difference in philosophy and spirit. For example in kendo for a hit to qualify as a point in shiai it has to have spirit and intent. For kumdo if it lightly taps the men it counts.
Quote:

Nathan Gidney wrote: (Post 176573)
All the kumdo I've seen has involved live blades and tameshigiri. Nothing like kendo. Was I seeing something else?

that would probably a koryu (iai/battojutsu) kendo is a shinai only discipline with bokken for kendo kata.


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