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mel 04-19-2007 10:07 PM

Shioda Gozo Technique
 
hey
I have seen this technique from Shioda Gozo in YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrV5RgkFf9s

the technique is more or less in the middle of this video.

it is when the Uke push Nage(Shioda sensei), but as the Uke touches the Nage, the Nage push his body forward into the Uke without touching him with his hand, then the Uke fall back.

i have seen this technique from O'sensei videos as well but not from his other students(maybe not yet).Not even in our Dojo do i have seen this technique.

Do anyone knows the name of this technique,and how it is done??
I belive this is an irimi but i have never seen an Irimi that go strait head-on with the attacker.

thank you in advance.

xuzen 04-19-2007 11:58 PM

Re: Shioda Gozo Technique
 
Quote:

Rommel Espaņol wrote: (Post 176087)
hey
I have seen this technique from Shioda Gozo in YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrV5RgkFf9s

the technique is more or less in the middle of this video.

it is when the Uke push Nage(Shioda sensei), but as the Uke touches the Nage, the Nage push his body forward into the Uke without touching him with his hand, then the Uke fall back.

i have seen this technique from O'sensei videos as well but not from his other students(maybe not yet).Not even in our Dojo do i have seen this technique.

Do anyone knows the name of this technique,and how it is done??
I belive this is an irimi but i have never seen an Irimi that go strait head-on with the attacker.

thank you in advance.

The technique is explained by Kancho himself in his autobiography "Aikido Shugyo". I have the book, I will need to copy out that chapter. Give me some time.

IMO, it is quite a difficult technique to perform... relying 100% on timing more than anything. Seeing how it is a low percentage technique, I would not spend the time to learn it.

That technique is not even in the standard Yoshinkan syllabus.

Don't have to think too much about that technique. Good for showmanship, bad as an executable technique.

Boon.

Edward 04-20-2007 01:21 AM

Re: Shioda Gozo Technique
 
It's a Kokyu Nage of course. What else can it be? :)

Dieter Haffner 04-20-2007 01:38 AM

Re: Shioda Gozo Technique
 
This is my favorite movie from Shioda Gozo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIowy89IXco
You can see a slow motion of technique you mentioned.
I specially like the second part of the movie.

jss 04-20-2007 11:50 AM

Re: Shioda Gozo Technique
 
Quote:

Rommel Espaņol wrote: (Post 176087)
I have seen this technique from O'sensei videos as well but not from his other students(maybe not yet).

Tamura did this technique last Sunday in Papendal, Holland.

And I don't think it's about timing. If Yiquan people can do it from a static position, so should aikido people.

Ron Tisdale 04-20-2007 12:13 PM

Re: Shioda Gozo Technique
 
While I respect Boon and his opinion, I have to disagree a bit.

I do think this is an important waza IF you are looking for the power that lies at the heart of aikido. Just my opinion, but I think that while aikido without this power can be very interesting, it's usefullness is seriously diminished without that power.

This waza without proper kokyu is low percentage. With proper kokyu? In a true fighting context? I don't know enough to say yet.

By the way...I have felt this waza applied to me by a ryoku dan from Yamaguchi Sensei's lineage. It can be made to work on me anyway. Dramatically, I might add...

Best,
Ron

Alex Megann 04-20-2007 01:58 PM

Re: Shioda Gozo Technique
 
Quote:

Dieter Haffner wrote: (Post 176104)
This is my favorite movie from Shioda Gozo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIowy89IXco
You can see a slow motion of technique you mentioned.
I specially like the second part of the movie.

Some beautiful kokyu-waza there. That clip really reminded me of Kanetsuka Sensei (who of course was a student of Shioda's in the early days). He teaches little else but kokyu-ho in various forms these days.

Alex

xuzen 04-20-2007 10:05 PM

Re: Shioda Gozo Technique
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote: (Post 176165)
While I respect Boon and his opinion, I have to disagree a bit.

I do think this is an important waza IF you are looking for the power that lies at the heart of aikido. Just my opinion, but I think that while aikido without this power can be very interesting, it's usefullness is seriously diminished without that power.

This waza without proper kokyu is low percentage. With proper kokyu? In a true fighting context? I don't know enough to say yet.

By the way...I have felt this waza applied to me by a ryoku dan from Yamaguchi Sensei's lineage. It can be made to work on me anyway. Dramatically, I might add...

Best,
Ron

He he he Ron....

Speaking of power... I learn about power generation from the doing the Kihon Dosa exercise. I learn about generating power from doing the suwari waza version of kihon waza.

I meant to say... in the Yoshinkan syllabus, there are plenty of more directly useful techniques to play with. Spending an insane amout of time to perfect such a low percentage technique is a poor Return of Investment ratio.... but to each his own.

Just some trivia... yesterday we were doing katate aya mochi ikkajo ichi. Some uke commented that my irimi is very strong but it is not off the muscular nature, I can only attribute it to proper kokyu power generation. I am please as punch for the time being.

Boon.

mel 04-22-2007 02:03 AM

Re: Shioda Gozo Technique
 
Quote:

Joep Schuurkes wrote: (Post 176160)
Tamura did this technique last Sunday in Papendal, Holland.

And I don't think it's about timing. If Yiquan people can do it from a static position, so should aikido people.

what is a Yiquan? is this a onother form of martial art that have the same technique?

THis technique is very interesting even if i may not be able to do it right now thier may be some principles in it that i can practise in other technique

jss 04-22-2007 03:40 AM

Re: Shioda Gozo Technique
 
Quote:

Rommel Espaņol wrote: (Post 176245)
what is a Yiquan? is this a onother form of martial art that have the same technique?

Yiquan is one of the Chinese internlal martial arts. And one of the things they like to practice is bouncing people away in a similar manner as Shioda, Tamura, etc. do.
But an ever better example than Yiquan would be a youtube video of Morihei Ueshiba, I mean, that guy really did know a thing or two about aikido! :D (I'll search for the URL when I have some more time.) In this video he first has someone pushing against his leg (= static situation) and then he bounces him away.

mel 04-23-2007 09:57 PM

Re: Shioda Gozo Technique
 
i found some of you rply interesing such as from xuzen:

Quote:

The technique is explained by Kancho himself in his autobiography "Aikido Shugyo".
Quote:

I learn about power generation from the doing the Kihon Dosa exercise. I learn about generating power from doing the suwari waza version of kihon waza
im wondering where can i find some of this resources such as Books,websites about Kancho autobiography and Kihon - by the way is Kihon Dosa/waza exercise related to aiki-taiso??

Quote:

Dieter Haffner wrote:
This is my favorite movie from Shioda Gozo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIowy89IXco
You can see a slow motion of technique you mentioned.
I specially like the second part of the movie.
i check out this link you gave me it was cool seeing the technique in slow-mo, i also seen O'sensei bounce people with his hips...those technique of bouncing Uke do may be different moves (Shioda/O'sensei)but same in Applied principles. im realy having great interest learning this principles. Maybe some decades from know i can pull it off my self. hehehe:cool: .

xuzen 04-23-2007 10:10 PM

Re: Shioda Gozo Technique
 
After referring to the book again "Aikido Shugyo", this is what he wrote in a nutshell...

It is all about timing, when uke has fully extended himself, you enter strongly at the moment he/she is fully extended to repel/bounce him of your body. It is easy to say this but to do it... is another ball game altogether.

Boon.

Edward 04-23-2007 10:43 PM

Re: Shioda Gozo Technique
 
Some techniques may very well be low percentage ones as you call them, but in my opinion, working on them will definitely improve your other "high percentage" techniques considerably. It's not always about real life efficiency, some techniques can probably never be used in real life situations but they can do wonders to your aikido.

xuzen 04-23-2007 11:05 PM

Re: Shioda Gozo Technique
 
Quote:

im wondering where can i find some of this resources such as Books,websites about Kancho autobiography and Kihon - by the way is Kihon Dosa/waza exercise related to aiki-taiso??
Aiki Taiso is just calisthenics / warm up movements prior to a GOOD DOJO BRAWL (TM) aka Randori/Jiyu-waza whateveryoucallit. Kihon Dosa is a specific set of exercise to help Noobs/also Old practitioners to learn about body movement and balance.

I find the best resourse from the book Aikido Shugyo and of course the countless hours in a Yoshinkan Dojo. But to me, it is not a book that you will understand thoroughly unless you have a few years of practice at a Yoshinkan Dojo. What I am saying is that it is not a beginner's HOW TO book. The books tell about Kancho's life experience and it is very conceptual. You simply need the basic experience to enjoy his book. But once you grasp it, it will take your aikido to the next level.

Boon.

mel 04-24-2007 09:51 PM

Re: Shioda Gozo Technique
 
many tenx for the info..but 1 last question if you dont mind, what do you mean by

Quote:

uke has fully extended himself
tenx alot:)

xuzen 05-29-2007 11:17 PM

Re: Shioda Gozo Technique
 
Fully extended in this context means uke has been made to lose his balance.

Mel, if you look at video of multiple uke jiyu-waza by Kancho Shioda, you notice that he does not stay in one spot. He moves around, slipping and weaving in and out of the crowd. By doing this, he is actually forcing the uke to extend themselves, because he simply does not stay at one spot for uke to engage him. In this way, he makes his uke come and get him and that is when aikido technique work best.

He does not stand around and try to grapple with his uke(s). As he moves around, he uses atemi and kokyu-nage most of the time.

I don't even recall seeing any video of Kancho doing any of the kansetsu-waza (wrist/joint locks) type technique when he is dealing with like 5-6 ukes.

Hope this help further.

Boon.

charyuop 05-30-2007 08:12 AM

Re: Shioda Gozo Technique
 
People might not agree but looking at Shioda is like looking at O Sensei. Small size, same "jumping" style and a smoothness that is amazing.
Moreover Shioda's randori in mu humble opinion are the best you can see. I have seldom seen Uke attacking with such a reality without waiting for their turn and yet Sensei shows no indecision or trouble of any sort.
No disrespect for my Sensei who is excellent as well as his Sensei (Saotome Sensei), but I wish I could have trained a little under Shioda Gozo Sensei...

wildaikido 06-09-2007 03:54 AM

Re: Shioda Gozo Technique
 
If it is the technique at 2 minutes and 34 seconds, "Fully Extended" refers to the fact the uke has locked out his elbows. This makes it easy to redirect the energy through his arms to unbalance (in this case throw) him.

Regards,

Erick Mead 06-09-2007 08:11 AM

Re: Shioda Gozo Technique
 
Quote:

Xu Wenfung wrote: (Post 176410)
Aiki Taiso is just calisthenics / warm up movements prior to a GOOD DOJO BRAWL (TM) aka Randori/Jiyu-waza whateveryoucallit.

Terry Dobson called it a little like "dancing." :D

{Couldn't resist the cross-post.}

Erick Mead 06-09-2007 08:33 AM

Re: Shioda Gozo Technique
 
Quote:

Xu Wenfung wrote: (Post 176406)
After referring to the book again "Aikido Shugyo", this is what he wrote in a nutshell...

It is all about timing, when uke has fully extended himself, you enter strongly at the moment he/she is fully extended to repel/bounce him of your body. It is easy to say this but to do it... is another ball game altogether.

It is also incomplete. There is not any point in the attack where it is not vulnerable from the tangent or normal to its line of action. The point of full extension is merely one point of vulnerability in that progression where momentum reverses, and there are any given number prior to and after that in the recovery phase. This is what O Sensei referred to when he specifically denied the principle of sente in aikido, of which timing is a part.

I think Shioda may have meant something broader than you are taking from it. He certainly does not wait for full extension in HIS randori. :D Moreover, the firm "bouncing off" "rooted kokyu is only one half of the equation -- ten no kokyu as well as chi no kokyu make up the whole of kokyu ryoku that Shioda wrote about, and his demonstrations clearly demonstrate.

Don_Modesto 06-09-2007 01:35 PM

Re: Shioda Gozo Technique
 
Quote:

Rommel Espaņol wrote: (Post 176087)
....it is when the Uke push Nage(Shioda sensei), but as the Uke touches the Nage, the Nage push his body forward into the Uke without touching him with his hand, then the Uke fall back....
Do anyone knows the name of this technique,and how it is done??
I belive this is an irimi but i have never seen an Irimi that go strait head-on with the attacker.

I seem to recall reading Shioda himself refering to this, interestingly enough, as ATEMI.

Ron? Do I recall "awrong"?

DH 06-09-2007 07:01 PM

Re: Shioda Gozo Technique
 
Erick's misled analysis will get you there about as fast as eating more rice will. It has nothing to do with angles or Ukes arms or tangients and extensions. Timing won't "pull it off" either.
It's Aiki power.
And the method of doing it is the basis of your entire art. FWIW, you should already know how to do it and you should have been doing it and many other seemingly advanced things since your first year. What a mess we've made of the arts.
It can be done from static standing or in Judo randori through the chest and arms. You should be able to do it through your head or your back, pretty much anything someone comes in contact with. Trouble is you need aiki in you- in order to affect others. You need to change -you- before you keep continuing with this blending/ timing crap. The "connection" has nothig to do with how it is done. But you can keep trying the blending / timing game till you get old.

If you can't do it and cannot explain how to do it -you don't understand Ai-ki-do. You're just doing the modern art of Aikido along with everyone else.
You can of course find a Japanese teacher, pay him alot of money, train under him for ten or twenty years, go to a whoooole bunch of seminars and hope he may eventually explain to you.... what you could have learned in a few weeks.
In the mean time, they may just tell you to eat more rice and do more kata. You may eventually get it. But really, most likely you never will. You'll end up like most folks writing in and wondering how it all goes together.
1. Find someone who actually knows aiki
2. Find somone who can and will "actually" teach

Shioda is among the few who knew how to do aiki. The very fact that he is so "different" to you? Pretty much says it all. Why in hell are so few teaching these things in clear, concrete, terms to train in? It's all vaguries and tral and error. Most are looking to low level teachers who really don't know, or it seems to real masters who simply won't show. It must be frustrating.

Aikibu 06-09-2007 07:13 PM

Re: Shioda Gozo Technique
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 180494)
1. Find someone who actually knows aiki
2. Find somone who can and will "actually" teach

Shioda is among the few who knew how to do aiki. The very fact that he is so "different" to you? Pretty much says it all. The real daming statement is why in hell is no one teaching these things in clear, concrete, terms to train in? It's all vaguries and trial and error. Most are looking to low level teachers who really don't know, or to real master who simply won't show.

"No one?!!?!" Are you telling me that there is absolutely NO ONE on the East Coast who meets your criteria???

Say it aint so....:eek:

Respectfully,

William Hazen

Erick Mead 06-09-2007 07:33 PM

Re: Shioda Gozo Technique
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 180494)
Erick's misled analysis will get you there about as fast as eating more rice will. It has nothing to do with angles or Ukes arms or tangients and extensions. Timing won't "pull it off" either. It's Aiki power.

I do not mistake the hole in the dam for the water that flows through it.
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote: (Post 180494)
Why in hell are so few teaching these things in clear, concrete, terms to train in?

They are -- in places you have not apparently been. Just not in YOUR terms.

DH 06-09-2007 07:48 PM

Re: Shioda Gozo Technique
 
Quote:

Erick Mead wrote: (Post 180499)
They are -- in places you have not apparently been. Just not in YOUR terms.

Where?


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