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-   -   The latest poll (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1241)

Dajo251 10-22-2001 05:01 PM

The latest poll
 
I am quite curious about the results of the latest poll, it says that 9 people have deleratly hurt others while training in aikido. I was wondering what the motivation behind hurting somone in a setting like an aikido class would be. I would also like to mention that I am not trying to condem people for their actions I am just curious as to why.

PeterR 10-22-2001 08:24 PM

Are we talking about inflicting pain or inflicting damage?

giriasis 10-22-2001 09:18 PM

The poll says: "...deliberately and excessively inflicting damage..." I interpreted this as intentionally inflicting a serious injury on your practice partner. If it was just pain then we do that all the time.

Anne Marie

Mares 10-22-2001 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by giriasis
The poll says: "...deliberately and excessively inflicting damage..." I interpreted this as intentionally inflicting a serious injury on your practice partner. If it was just pain then we do that all the time.

Anne Marie

Well technically it doesn't stipulate damage. But to deliberately and EXCESSIVELY hurt someone during traning is a worry. I just hope those who said yes were either joking of they don't train at my dojo. I suspect they wouldn't last long anyway.

PeterR 10-22-2001 10:27 PM

Well I have deliberately inflicted pain in the dojo but excessive - well I didn't think so.

Damage - well there was some bruising. I wouldn't call that excessive either.

The question is loaded - it said hurt not damage. Excessive according to whose definition.

Pain is part of what we do. Kime is not necessary for a technique to work, even the pins, but the potential is there as is the need to be aware of the possibilites. Not to mention a certain amount of toughening up.

Chuck Clark 10-23-2001 04:59 PM

Peter,

How are you using the word "kime" in this instance?

Kime to me means "decisive" and can include pain but does not have to. As you say, techniques do not have to create pain to be effective.

Thanks,

PeterR 10-23-2001 05:20 PM

Hi Chuck;

I know that in the context of Judo's kime no kata - kime means decisive.

In my time in Osaka kime was always used as an application of pressure which more often than not involves pain. The pressure application of Aikikai's yonkyo is a form of kime for example but there are many others.

So to answer your question I have no problems associating what I know as kime with decisiveness however when I worked through Judo's kime no kata the definition went beyond what I associated with it.

Real clear I know - but truth is I don't know exactly what kime means in the Shodokan context. To me if there is bone on bone pressure and pain is delivered that is kime.

Quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Clark
Peter,

How are you using the word "kime" in this instance?

Kime to me means "decisive" and can include pain but does not have to. As you say, techniques do not have to create pain to be effective.


Chuck Clark 10-23-2001 09:13 PM

Peter,

I have always heard the term used either in P/K arts as "focus" with a punch or kick. In judo it often is used to mean the decisive moment in osaekomiwaza where tori has achieved control and the time should start. Also in kansetsuwaza, it is the place where the joint is locked and uke can't power out or use the limb, etc. (and of course as you mention in the Kime no kata).

I have always used the term in aikido to mean the joint is locked and along with the rest of the structure associated with the joint lock can't really function to get away. In other words, the decisive point of when the lock is effective. Pain can be there but is not necessary.

I often feel that when someone goes for pain in a lock with me that it gives me "feedback" to know where their center is and can be countered. Sure, it can hurt, but there's a window of opportunity there if you're sensitive to it.

Ghost Fox 10-24-2001 06:23 AM

This is my personal experience on the matter. :o

I was at a seminar with approx 100 people in attendance. There were aikidokas at various levels and they came from all over the country. One of the yudansha (Nidan) in attendance was a real bruiser (Lets call him Biff the Bruiser). He must of weight at least 230 lbs.

During the seminar we got into groups (about 8 people) to practice a particular waza. When it was Biff's turn up he slammed this 100 lb. female aikidoka into the mat. :mad: You could see that the woman was quite dazed from the throw, but she got up slowly and walked it off (A real trooper). Not only does Biff out weigh this woman by over a 100 lbs., but she was only a beginner (Gokyu). I'm all for yudanshas and high-ranking aikidoka going hard on each other, but this was not case.

I guess the other yudanshas in the group agreed with me. They each in turn proceeded to drive Biff into the mat with all the power and speed they could deliver. :eek: It was an impressive if not brutal display. We must have performed three or four rounds of the technique and every time it was Biff's turn to take ukemi he was drilled and pounded into the mat. Sometimes I didn't think Biff would get up, but I guess his ego got the best of him.

Afterward you could see he was very shaken, and throughout the rest of the seminar he was a lot less gung-ho when performing a technique.

To be perfectly honest, if I was a yudansha at the time, I would've been up there drilling Biff into the mat with the rest of them. Some lessons are best taught by ones peers. :(


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