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LoriCH 04-16-2007 09:49 AM

10,000+ techniques
 
1.How did O'Sensei record them? From the moment of attack til the end when uke is immobilized? Or per movement, ex: 3 moves til uke is down is counted as 3 techniques?
Well, no matter how he did it - it's still overwhelming!!!:D

2. Was there any event where they tried to do all these techniques? Say in a 3 or 4 month 1 year, 5 year intensive course? How many years will it take to experience all of it? -

3. Where can his manuscripts and illustrations be viewed?

Thanks.

Lori (Ho Chi Minh City, Viet Nam)
lchermano@yahoo.com

Fred Little 04-16-2007 11:05 AM

Re: 10,000+ techniques
 
In East Asian rhetoric, ten-thousand is often used to mean "more than can be counted" or "countless" or "everything," as distinct from accounting or cataloging usages in which 10,000 is used literally.

Erick Mead 04-16-2007 11:20 AM

Re: 10,000+ techniques
 
For the record, he is quoted in an interview as saying there are 3,000 basic techniques, 16 variations on each, and then you make up others at need as the situation dictates, so "there are many thousands."

Quote:

Lori Ann Hermano wrote: (Post 175613)
1.How did O'Sensei record them? From the moment of attack til the end when uke is immobilized? Or per movement, ex: 3 moves til uke is down is counted as 3 techniques?
Well, no matter how he did it - it's still overwhelming!!!:D

No idea. I've never heard of any one else who has an authoritative one, either. I have made tables of basic attack/defense combinations with kamae, omote/ura, soto/uchi turn combinations that (very roughly) approach such numbers. It is a useful exercise to see how many you know or can imagine, and is a great way to work out odd possibilities to see where the movements can go in practice.

Quote:

Lori Ann Hermano wrote: (Post 175613)
2. Was there any event where they tried to do all these techniques? Say in a 3 or 4 month 1 year, 5 year intensive course? How many years will it take to experience all of it? -

3. Where can his manuscripts and illustrations be viewed?

Budo Renshu, his 1936(??) text is good. The Sugawara edition has illustrations sketched by a student with at least some indication of approval by him, although even for that the editing is disputed in some circles.

This is all somewhat beside the point, however. It is understandable that many people get caught up in it as a concrete form for organizing knowledge. The aikido is not really the collection of techniques, although they serve to help in learning it.

It's all really 50,000 variations on ikkyo, the "one teaching," anyway. :D Of course, no one agrees on exactly what that "one teaching" is, precisely, so you get 50,00 variations on that, as well.

The structured kihon waza are primarily there as foundation, or -- a better image -- a safety net to fall back on in practice when the aikido you are learning from them does not work out in its intended creative dynamic in the specific encounter. The attention to precision in performing them is not intended to be duplicated in every engagement but, mostly, into aid in developing the dynamic sensitivity that such precision entails.

The ultimate point of aikido is more the analogous high-wire and trapeze act, not the drop into the net.

jennifer paige smith 05-13-2007 12:21 PM

Re: 10,000+ techniques
 
Also for the record, O'Sensei would say there was only One technique in Aikido and that every technique is different.

Maybe like a leaf. One leaf:many variations of the leaf.

If you kinda scan back you can find him making all kinds of references to the # of techniques. I suspect that he was sometimes being a trickster.

ChrisMoses 05-13-2007 12:41 PM

Re: 10,000+ techniques
 
Quote:

Lori Ann Hermano wrote: (Post 175613)
1.How did O'Sensei record them?

The short answer is, he didn't. It was left to his students to catalogue and categorize them. You see the results of this in all of the various names and terms across different aikido organizations. Some of the techniques were named from the section of the Daito Ryu syllabus that they came from (ikkyo is based on several similar kata from DR's ikkajo series from the hiden mokuroku for example). Keep in mind that even Budo Renshu was not written by OSensei, but it was approved of by him and for a time acted as aikido's mokuroku (transmission scroll), so there is some added weight (imho) wrt what is presented there.

SeiserL 05-13-2007 02:53 PM

Re: 10,000+ techniques
 
IMHO, it was not meant to be a literal finite count, but a statement of infinite variations.

Mike Haftel 05-13-2007 05:29 PM

Re: 10,000+ techniques
 
Yeah, there is no way there are 10,000 seperate and individual techniques in any martial art.

There are a few, limited number of fundamental "techniques" and the others are just variations of the first one.

For example:

Nikyo from cross grab, from same side grab, from double grab, from the front, from the rear, from a strike, from a kick, from a headlock, from a bear hug, from whatever....they are all Nikyo, just variations of the same lock. They are not seperate techniques.

miratim 05-13-2007 06:41 PM

Re: 10,000+ techniques
 
True. although those are just variations on attack, but that's not necessarily discussing technique. Each technique, like nikyo itself, has several different directions of entry/turning and release/pin that could be considered different enough from each other to list separately.

Mike Haftel 05-13-2007 11:28 PM

Re: 10,000+ techniques
 
Quote:

Tim Miranda wrote: (Post 178235)
True. although those are just variations on attack, but that's not necessarily discussing technique. Each technique, like nikyo itself, has several different directions of entry/turning and release/pin that could be considered different enough from each other to list separately.

True, but you are missing the fact that Nage's method and choice of application of a technique neccessarily depends on Uke's methhod of attack.

Either way, I don't count variations of a technique as individual, seperate techniques.

Yann Golanski 05-14-2007 02:36 AM

Re: 10,000+ techniques
 
I tend to think that there are maybe 20 Aikido techiques. But you can apply them in many different ways.

For example, everything with kote gaeshi in it is one techniques but say the omote and ura versions are just applications of the basic kote gaeshi principles.

... Just the mushing of a shodothug.

Aikilove 05-14-2007 10:04 AM

Re: 10,000+ techniques
 
The number 3000 (or what it was) that Ueshiba used I'm pretty confident came from the number of techniques in Daito ryu. He did actually give a couple of his prewar students complete mokuroku (how complete they actually were I can't remember but I think they were at least the Hiden Mokuroku.

However, in aikikai from some time back...
Modern "named" techniques irrespective of attacks and not counting omote and ura versions (in no special order:

Ikkyo (nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo, gokkyo, rokkyo, etc)
Kotegaeshi
Iriminage
Shihonage
Kaitennage (soto, uchi)
Koshinage

Then some 20 or so clearly seperable kokyuunage, some of which also have names: Aikinage, Aikiotoshi, Sumiotoshi etc.

If one just for the fun of it estimate the amount of individual combinations of attacks and techniques I get (assuming all techniques are possible on all attacks and assuming about 10 of the named techniques have omote or ura or the like and assuming about 20 basic standing attacks:
{(10 x 2 (techniques omote/ura))+10 (techniques without omote/ura)} x 20 (attacks) = 600 standing techniques

Then for hanmi-hantachi waza I assume about 10 separate attacks with about 10 techniques (omote/ura) and perhaps 5 other techniques per attack gives:
{(10 x 2) + 5} x 10 = 250 hanmi hantachi. Lets round it up to about 300 techniques.
And let's for the sake of convenience use the same number on suwari waza:
= 300 suwari waza.

This ads up to a total of about 600 + 300 + 300 = 1200 techniques give or take a couple of hundred.
Not including ninindori and sannindori etc.

I would say that I personaly do about 200 of these 1200 (or so) techniques about 90% of the time.

Just having a boring time at the office!!

/J

jennifer paige smith 05-15-2007 10:01 AM

Re: 10,000+ techniques
 
Quote:

Lynn Seiser wrote: (Post 178219)
IMHO, it was not meant to be a literal finite count, but a statement of infinite variations.

Based on the infinite variations of nature.

jennifer paige smith 05-15-2007 10:36 AM

Re: 10,000+ techniques
 
Just another thought.

10,000 is a number related to the 10 fold path of generosity and receiving.hmmmmm

Paul Sanderson-Cimino 05-15-2007 10:59 AM

Re: 10,000+ techniques
 
At any rate, IMO, trying to account for and practice every conceivable aikido technique is not a great way to try to understand it.

Put another way, I think aikido has a fair number of "different" techniques -- maybe a dozen, maybe twenty. Aikido in general, anyway. My aikido has maybe two or three -- that is, there are maybe two or three techniques that I'm getting decent at applying with a sincere, active partner.

A boxer has only a few techniques as far as punches go. But they're quite formidable, because they're A) very good techniques and B) practiced exhaustively in challenging settings.

SeiserL 05-15-2007 11:41 AM

Re: 10,000+ techniques
 
Quote:

Jennifer Smith wrote: (Post 178361)
Based on the infinite variations of nature.

Based on not having enough fingers and toes.

Mark Uttech 05-15-2007 12:27 PM

Re: 10,000+ techniques
 
When I was going to school after losing my job, I received an 'F' in my Intro to Psychology class. The kindly professor told me that the reason I couldn't get it was because I was trying to understand it 'by rote'. So he told me just to read the text and then go over it with glances. I was the only one in the 60 student class that received a perfect score on the next exam. I think the study of aikido is the same way; just go to class and absorb the lessons and the atmosphere of practice.

In gassho,

Mark

ryujin 05-15-2007 05:55 PM

Re: 10,000+ techniques
 
10,000 techniques? :confused:

I thought it was 10,000 pleats.

um...I have to go fix my hakama. :freaky:

dps 05-15-2007 11:46 PM

Re: 10,000+ techniques
 
Quote:

Lori Ann Hermano wrote: (Post 175613)
1.How did O'Sensei record them? From the moment of attack til the end when uke is immobilized? Or per movement, ex: 3 moves til uke is down is counted as 3 techniques?
Well, no matter how he did it - it's still overwhelming!!!:D

2. Was there any event where they tried to do all these techniques? Say in a 3 or 4 month 1 year, 5 year intensive course? How many years will it take to experience all of it? -

3. Where can his manuscripts and illustrations be viewed?

Thanks.

Lori (Ho Chi Minh City, Viet Nam)
lchermano@yahoo.com

From O'Senei's book

'Budo',
"Your teacher can only give you an outline, a hint here or there to guide you. Only through constant practice will you master the practical use of this mystery. Learn to understand with your body. Do not engage in a futile effort to learn a great number of techniques but rather study the techniques one by one. Make each your own."

jennifer paige smith 05-16-2007 09:23 AM

Re: 10,000+ techniques
 
Quote:

Lynn Seiser wrote: (Post 178381)
Based on not having enough fingers and toes.

In that case, aikido has twenty techniques. Easy:) .

Steven 05-16-2007 10:51 AM

Re: 10,000+ techniques
 
FWIW, in the Yoshinkan we say there are 150 basic techniques and some 3000 variations of those 150. In video footage that appears on Stan Pranin's Aikido Masters, where he is doing the translations, the Yoshinkan instructor speaking further says, from these 3000 there are over 10,000 variations. I can only speculate that he got that information from Gozo Shioda.

I was taught the number of techniques is infinite because for each person who does a technique, it's a variation; and if we do the same technique 20 times, we've done it 20 different ways because something has changed; and that you can never do the technique the same way twice. The reasoning being is because something mentally, physically and/or spiritually (did I use that word) has changed. Blood pressure, respiration, what you were thinking the first time versus the second time, etc.

So I believe the number of techniques are infinite, but also buy into the school of thought that one only needs to practice the basics. Once you've learned that, the skies the limit, so to say. So don’t get your hakama’s all tied up in knots trying to figure out how many techniques there are.

Mark Uttech 05-19-2007 11:52 AM

Re: 10,000+ techniques
 
Excellent comment steve!

In gassho, Mark


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