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-   -   Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu Seminar at Aikido of Northern Virginia (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12336)

Jim Sorrentino 04-09-2007 12:31 PM

Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu Seminar at Aikido of Northern Virginia
 
Greetings All,

On June 15 and 16, Aikido of Northern Virginia will host a seminar with Roy Goldberg-sensei, 6th dan, Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu. There will be two classes:

Friday: 6:30 pm - 8:30 pm
Saturday: 9:00 am - 1:00 pm

The cost of the seminar is $75 for the entire seminar for those who register and pay by April 30. Daily rates are available for those who cannot attend the entire seminar. Attendees must pre-register. There will be no registration at the door. Attendance is limited to 40 participants. If more than 40 participants register, those who sign up for the entire seminar will have priority. Weapons will not be used.

Roy Goldberg-sensei is the East Coast Representative for the Daito Ryu Kodo Kai North American Headquarters, and a senior student of Hayawo Kiyama, shihan. For more information, please see http://www.aikido-nova.org/goldberg2007.pdf. See you on the mat!

Jim

Ron Tisdale 04-09-2007 12:38 PM

Re: Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu Seminar at Aikido of Northern Virginia
 
Looking forward to it!

B,
R

Jim Sorrentino 04-24-2007 08:13 AM

Registration Deadline CORRECTION
 
Greetings All,

There are still spaces for this seminar!

The cost is $75 for the entire seminar for those who register and pay by MAY 31, not April 30. Daily rates are available for those who cannot attend the entire seminar.

Attendees must pre-register. There will be no registration at the door. Attendance is limited to 40 participants. If more than 40 participants register, those who sign up for the entire seminar will have priority. Weapons will not be used.

For more information, please see http://www.aikido-nova.org/goldberg2007.pdf. See you on the mat!

Jim

Jim Sorrentino 05-12-2007 12:59 PM

Deadline Approaching, Still Some Spaces Left
 
Greetings All,

There are still spaces for this seminar. The registration deadline is May 31. Daily rates are available for those who cannot attend the entire seminar.

For more information, please see http://www.aikido-nova.org/goldberg2007.pdf. See you on the mat!

Jim

Jim Sorrentino 06-19-2007 12:35 PM

Re: Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu Seminar at Aikido of Northern Virginia
 
1 Attachment(s)
Greetings All,

On behalf of Aikido of Northern Virginia, I offer my thanks to all the participants and Roy Goldberg-sensei for an excellent seminar!

Sincerely,

Jim

Stephen Kotev 06-20-2007 09:30 AM

Re: Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu Seminar at Aikido of Northern Virginia
 
Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu Seminar at Aikido of Northern Virginia
Review by Stephen Kotev


Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu is often mentioned on this and other Aikido websites. I vividly recall my first days investigation Aikido on Internet -- Daito Ryu was a constant reference. Aikido Journal had whole texts dedicated to the topic. This sparked my interest and I began to seek out more information about Daito Ryu. I soon learned that outside of Japan there were not many schools that taught Daito Ryu and those that did often came with complicated and sometimes disputed lineages. Soon it became confusing to know who to trust. What was enjoyable about this seminar was that Roy Goldberg Sensei did not have those complications. His lineage and affiliation are clear and well known.

There were several other great benefits. Sensei Goldberg and his senior student Gino Goyco were very welcoming and friendly. Due to the limited class size you could get your hands on both of them and experience the techniques for yourself. After years of observing internet dialogues and arguments about Daito Ryu it was great to be able to feel it for yourself and make your own decisions. Sensei Goldberg was also very open and willing to ask and answer questions - this attitude is sometimes very rare at Aikido seminars so his openness was a welcome benefit.

The seminar focused on introductory concepts and principles of Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu. Sensei Goldberg encourages us to focus on the differences between the two arts and not to succumb to the "oh I know that technique" pitfall. The differences and similarities were quite interesting and worth attending for this reason alone. Daito Ryu as represented by Sensei Goldberg does not have ukemi as we know it. The techniques I experienced created a strong connection between Tori and Uke and when done correctly leave no option for uke. Uke makes no decisions they simply are dropped into a hole and must fall. There is no decision-making process; you don't wonder how you should move -- your balance is taken and tori manipulates the connection between the two of you to place you in a position where you must fall.

For example Shiho Nage -- Imagine that you as tori were facing uke with feet shoulder-width apart at handshaking distance; uke then grabs your wrist. Mechanically, my experience was that Goldberg Sensei created a connection between by grabbing arm and the hip of the same side -- this occurred in conjunction with kuzushi being taken. Sensei would then irimi and turn under my outstretched arm until he had replaced his hip with my own and I became dependent on his structure to stay standing. Sensei continued to turn my arm until it was returned to the location of my original stance; once this occurred he no longer supported my structure and I now had to return to my own hip for balance -- this was not possible and I was dropped into a breakfall. If this description did not make sense maybe others who attended could elaborate.

It was a fascinating experience. Goldberg Sensei has several techniques that followed this pattern. Sensei would create a connection and structure that I became dependent on and then removed that structure thus causing me to fall. It was fascinating to see how this mirrored my experience in Aikido and how striking some of the differences were. Another way to think about this is "small circle Aikido" as Goldberg Sensei commented. Many of the techniques took place in much smaller quarters than most Aikidoka are used to and fall usually happened very near the initial attack.

I want to thank Aikido of Northern Virginia and Jim Sorrentino Sensei for hosting this event. It was a lot of fun. Thanks again for hosting Goldberg Sensei and allowing Aikidoka access to Daito Ryu training.

Regards,
Stephen Kotev

Adman 06-20-2007 11:58 AM

Re: Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu Seminar at Aikido of Northern Virginia
 
Emphasis mine:
Quote:

Stephen Kotev wrote: (Post 181421)
Daito Ryu as represented by Sensei Goldberg does not have ukemi as we know it. The techniques I experienced created a strong connection between Tori and Uke and when done correctly leave no option for uke. Uke makes no decisions they simply are dropped into a hole and must fall. There is no decision-making process; you don't wonder how you should move -- your balance is taken and tori manipulates the connection between the two of you to place you in a position where you must fall.

Just curious. Are you saying in the aikido you practice, uke gets to "decide" wether or not they fall? I'm not disputing that there are differences, but everything you described sounded like what aikido should be.

Thanks for the review!

Adam

Stephen Kotev 06-20-2007 12:28 PM

Re: Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu Seminar at Aikido of Northern Virginia
 
Quote:

Adam Bauder wrote: (Post 181439)
Emphasis mine:

Just curious. Are you saying in the aikido you practice, uke gets to "decide" wether or not they fall? I'm not disputing that there are differences, but everything you described sounded like what aikido should be.

Thanks for the review!

Adam

Hi Adam,

Take Tenchi Nage for example; you can take a sitfall, forward roll, or backward roll off this technique in Aikido. I still have to fall but I have a choice of what kind of fall I take. You have the choice between the three. In most throws that I have experienced Uke has the option to vary their body movement to take different types of falls. My experience at this seminar was that I had no choice -- my body was being manipulated so that I had to take a breakfall from Shiho Nage -- I did not make any decisions my structure was manipulated till I had to fall. I could not take a front roll out of it or slip my hips to take a sitfall. I had to take a breakfall. I know it may sound similar but it's very different. Many of the falls that Gino took were breakfalls; I rarely saw any forward tumbles. The Daito Ryu techniques took place at a very close distance and the uke was dropped not thrown. I think that's a big difference -- vertical drop vs. horizontal throw.

There was also a difference in kuzushi -- In my experience it seemed easier for uke to regain their balance from a botched Aikido technique than from a botched Daito Ryu technique. It seems that it's easier to break connection with Nage in Aikido than Tori in Daito Ryu. Once I was locked in/connected to Goldberg Sensei -- it was all over -- no deciding just waiting for the drop. I have worked with many beginners what will turn away and not continue to attack once you tenkan -- they have the choice to continue to follow.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,
Stephen

Timothy WK 06-20-2007 01:22 PM

Re: Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu Seminar at Aikido of Northern Virginia
 
Quote:

Stephen Kotev wrote: (Post 181421)
Daito Ryu ... does not have ukemi as we know it.

That was something that struck me about Daito-Ryu as well. In Aikido, Uke takes a very active role, attempting to "follow" Tori. (Many AIkido techniques actually take advantage of this movement.) Ukemi often involves taking steps or turns or whatnot. In this sense, Uke has to "think" about what they're doing.

In Daito-Ryu, there's none of that. Kuzushi is generally taken on the first movement, so Uke can't really do anything but stand there while Tori maneuvers for the throw or whatever.

Adman 06-20-2007 01:29 PM

Re: Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu Seminar at Aikido of Northern Virginia
 
Quote:

Stephen Kotev wrote: (Post 181445)
Take Tenchi Nage for example; you can take a sitfall, forward roll, or backward roll off this technique in Aikido. I still have to fall but I have a choice of what kind of fall I take. You have the choice between the three.

Ahhh ... then we're just talking about differences (or perceptions) in training. In my experience, the only options I have are the ones presented to me by nage (not the technique). In the case of tenchi-nage, for example -- as it is practiced in my dojo -- done well, there is only one option (even if I "choose" otherwise).

Thanks for the clarification.
Adam

Irv Lachow 06-29-2007 11:37 AM

Re: Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu Seminar at Aikido of Northern Virginia
 
Quote:

Stephen Kotev wrote: (Post 181445)
Hi Adam,

Take Tenchi Nage for example; you can take a sitfall, forward roll, or backward roll off this technique in Aikido. I still have to fall but I have a choice of what kind of fall I take. You have the choice between the three. In most throws that I have experienced Uke has the option to vary their body movement to take different types of falls. My experience at this seminar was that I had no choice -- my body was being manipulated so that I had to take a breakfall from Shiho Nage -- I did not make any decisions my structure was manipulated till I had to fall. I could not take a front roll out of it or slip my hips to take a sitfall. I had to take a breakfall. I know it may sound similar but it's very different. Many of the falls that Gino took were breakfalls; I rarely saw any forward tumbles. The Daito Ryu techniques took place at a very close distance and the uke was dropped not thrown. I think that's a big difference -- vertical drop vs. horizontal throw.

There was also a difference in kuzushi -- In my experience it seemed easier for uke to regain their balance from a botched Aikido technique than from a botched Daito Ryu technique. It seems that it's easier to break connection with Nage in Aikido than Tori in Daito Ryu. Once I was locked in/connected to Goldberg Sensei -- it was all over -- no deciding just waiting for the drop. I have worked with many beginners what will turn away and not continue to attack once you tenkan -- they have the choice to continue to follow.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,
Stephen

Stephen,
Thanks for the great description of the event. I think that you captured all of the key aspects that made it a wonderful experience. I would like throw (pardon the pun) my support behind what you said about the throws and falls. It is hard to understand this without feeling it, but you are exactly right that Goldberg Sensei made it practically impossible for uke to do anything but take the fall (almost always a break fall) in a very specific way. In some cases, I think that a useful analogy might be taken from judo. If someone is doing a major hip throw on you and they've got you off balance, on your toes, and sitting on their hip, you don't have much choice about what to do next. That's what the aiki-jutsu felt like, except with aikido-like techniques. Goldbert would take your balance immediately and then manipulate your body (focusing on your center of course) so that you had to take a very fast breakfall or else risk serious injury. Many of the falls were literally done right over your feet with little horizontal movement. It was amazing to watch and even better to feel (albeit a bit scary at first). Goldberg also showed aiki-jutsu varients of things like yanko and kotegeishe (forgive the spelling) that he felt were more effective than the aikido versions. Although I'm loathe to make judgments on such things, I'd have to agree that his approach seemed extremely effective.

If any of you have a chance to work with Goldberg Sensei, I highly recommend it. :)


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