AikiWeb Aikido Forums

AikiWeb Aikido Forums (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/index.php)
-   Techniques (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4)
-   -   Nikyo Basics (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11762)

Brad Allen 02-02-2007 11:29 PM

Nikyo Basics
 
My nikyo from ikkyo is OK, but from the overhead strike, it's like I have no clue where to begin, and I stand there staring at Uke's hand like I've never seen the appendage before.

How can I translate the mechanics of the nikyo from ikkyo to the overhead strike? Maybe this is an impossible question--I can't imagine how someone can make it clearer with words and not showing me physically, but I thought I'd try.

Thanks if you can help, if not, no worries!

FiuzA 02-03-2007 08:15 AM

Re: Nikyo Basics
 
have you already asked that to your sensei and/or your sempai?

that's the first step, imo.

Erick Mead 02-03-2007 07:56 PM

Re: Nikyo Basics
 
Is the problem in trying to adjust the connection after you have secured the initial ikkyo movement with uke's hand across your knee ?

Brad Allen 02-04-2007 07:07 PM

Re: Nikyo Basics
 
Quote:

Erick Mead wrote:
Is the problem in trying to adjust the connection after you have secured the initial ikkyo movement with uke's hand across your knee ?

It doesn't even get that far: I blend with the strike. My temptation is to swing his arm up in sort of an arm-bar, and "goose-neck" uke's forearm against my shoulder. Am I way off track?

Nikyo was one of the last techniques I learned before my break, so it's the first I've really forgotten. I just wanted a little advise before I ask the sensei.

Thanks if you have some suggestions!

Ron Tisdale 02-05-2007 08:23 AM

Re: Nikyo Basics
 
Do shomenuchi ikkyo as Erick and others suggested, then slide the hand controlling the elbow down to the wrist, then front pivot bring the hand up, circling with the blade hand of your hand not controlling the wrist...their hand should drop into your 'tiger's mouth', the space between your thumb and the rest of your fingers. Make sure your grip with that hand controls their thumb. This is one basic variation...shoulders should be back and down to "close" the spine, elbows just slightly bent, and apply the control with your hips without leaning forward.

There are many other basics and variations...the goose neck control is ususally not considered a basic from what I've seen...more of an applied come along standing control.

Best,
Ron

Erick Mead 02-05-2007 09:47 AM

Re: Nikyo Basics
 
Quote:

Brad Allen wrote:
It doesn't even get that far: I blend with the strike. My temptation is to swing his arm up in sort of an arm-bar, and "goose-neck" uke's forearm against my shoulder. Am I way off track?

Nikyo was one of the last techniques I learned before my break, so it's the first I've really forgotten. I just wanted a little advise before I ask the sensei.

Thanks if you have some suggestions!

I have diffculty sorting out from your description at what point in the movement the problem is occurring (or perhaps what variation of movement you were taught).

The classic kihon variation usually taught for shomenuchi nikkyo omote waza, has the initial ikkyo movement taking uke's balance to the standing transition in front -- with the forearm laid across the far leg, elbow below wrist, shoulder below elbow, and weight settled into uke's center through the elbow (or shoulder). The hard part for most (as it was for me) is to get the transition smooth and natural.

Of course, nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo, gokyo, rokyo are all just variations of what happens to occur in gaining connection in a real engagement, so the kihon is "set-up" to understand this particular way of connecting in isolation, so that you will recognize it when it occurs -- not so you that you can try to force to occur, which is a perspective that sometimes takes a long time to grasp fully. We get it intellectually way before the stupid hindbrain that does the biting/clawing routine starts to catch on.

If your body position is proper in the transition, your wrist and hand are in tegatana (fingers slightly splayed) on top of the arm to begin with. Then you extend your arm slightly out, over and around the outside of uke's arm and then return underneath using a motion that involves your whole body, the hip moving the arm forward, around and back in a slight rowing motion (torifune). This results in the hand coming up underneath and outside the back of uke's hand -- without changing the tegatana shape.

Then you release your weight from uke's center and he rises (which he naturally wants to do). You let your free hand cup the elbow (fingers top and heel of the palm bottom) as it comes up. Some teach to with the thumb under, but I was taught to keep the thumb out of the way ( in part becasue it avoids the natrual tendecy to do the "elbow deathgrip." Don't do that, however you connect.

Extend the hand captured in nikkyo toward uke in an irimi motion, but with your whole body (not by an arm push). The near leg steps forward as the far leg steps back, in the basic version I have most frequently seen. (There are variations that legitimately move the front foot first or leave it where it is, however, so don't get too particular.) Then as you turn the far hip away and the near hip in, socket the first knuckles of uke's thumb and forefinger into the curve of your shoulder with that near hip now forward.

The hand on the elbow does not press or wrench, it simply is firmly connected there to feel where he is going. The hand on the wrist does not torque it, it simply keeps the connection firm into your body. If he moves in -- you move back the pinned side to make room for him to come in, and you bow slightly to welcome him.

You may find he realizes his rudeness in barging in at that point, and changes his mind. :D He is, in fact, torquing his own wrist.

If he moves away, you follow. Reluctantly send him away in a grand gesture with your hips leading his hand, elbow and shoulder out and away -- in that order. It looks very much like a sword cut, probably because it is...

Once you understand the way the connections to him are leading you to move (as nage), then you no longer need as extensive contact to accomplish the same thing. The nikkyo coneciton can eventually be performed with just two hands on the wrist, or -- my all time favorite exercise (since it was shown to me) -- and the bane of my unwitting training partners -- by locking him up in nikkyo with pinky fingers. (If you want to see that rude guest leave in an awful big hurry .... )

It is ultimately a matter of following his connection throroughly. There are a lot of variations from the kihon in the controlling movements depending on uke's choices once the basic nikkyo connection is established.

As said before, please ask your teacher and invite him to fully disregard anything I have said. :)

Ketsan 02-05-2007 10:28 AM

Re: Nikyo Basics
 
Quote:

Brad Allen wrote:
My nikyo from ikkyo is OK, but from the overhead strike, it's like I have no clue where to begin, and I stand there staring at Uke's hand like I've never seen the appendage before.

How can I translate the mechanics of the nikyo from ikkyo to the overhead strike? Maybe this is an impossible question--I can't imagine how someone can make it clearer with words and not showing me physically, but I thought I'd try.

Thanks if you can help, if not, no worries!

We have two ways one that goes through ikkyo and one that goes like this:
Cut up and meet it ai hami, taking with the gakyu hamni hand as you tenkan out of the way. Then you bring it across your body as though you're doing rokkyu but then turn, put the hand in your shoulder and do nikkyo.

Janet Rosen 02-05-2007 05:04 PM

Re: Nikyo Basics
 
We are pretty much taught to start w/ ikkyo then find nikkyo, regardless of attack, except for the shoulder grabs. ymmv.

MorpheusNSC 02-07-2007 11:45 PM

Re: Nikyo Basics
 
That's so different from what we're taught as a general rule... I'm curious what the reason for that approach is?

batemanb 02-09-2007 05:02 AM

Re: Nikyo Basics
 
Quote:

Nicholas Corduan wrote:
That's so different from what we're taught as a general rule... I'm curious what the reason for that approach is?

Am assuming you are responding to Janet's post.

When it comes to kihon waza Ikkyo is a basic technique, nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo, gokyo and even rokkyo are just variations. I always teach ikkyo as the principle technique, once you can do that, everything else will fall into place.

Of course, there is oyo waza (variations) for these techniques, many that perhaps apply the lock at an earlier instance in the movement. These you learn through practice, but for many, the focus often becomes the lock variation and the basic principles of the movement are forgotten or ignored. Ikkyo should still be considered the first step to getting to any of the them. At least in my opinion :).

Erik Calderon 02-09-2007 08:16 AM

Re: Nikyo Basics
 
My advice:

Do it 1,000 times in a row, then ask the same question.

aikido shinkikan
www.shinkikan.com

xuzen 02-09-2007 09:14 PM

Re: Nikyo Basics
 
Quote:

Brad Allen wrote:
My nikyo from ikkyo is OK, but from the overhead strike, it's like I have no clue where to begin, and I stand there staring at Uke's hand like I've never seen the appendage before.

How can I translate the mechanics of the nikyo from ikkyo to the overhead strike? Maybe this is an impossible question--I can't imagine how someone can make it clearer with words and not showing me physically, but I thought I'd try.

Thanks if you can help, if not, no worries!

Right Shomen-uchi Nikajo...

Brad, trying to learn an aikido technique over the internet is like trying to describe Mona Lisa using words without ever seeing it, especially with Shomen-uchi Nikajo, which IMO is a technique that needs a liitle more fine motor skill manipulation. (Think off the wrist change).

Personally I think Shomen-uchi Nikajo is good to learn for the sake of learning the art called aikido only, i,e., for completion sake. As far as practicality is concern, shomen-uchi ikkajo to newaza waki-gatamae/hiji-shime/rokyu (same technique, different names in different school) is a better submission / fight ending technique.

OK, back to describing the technique. Let me try... Shomen-uchi nikajo ichi (irimi) version
Step 1) I assume you know Shomen-uchi ikkajo right? Then I will begin the technique at the moment where you have uke's striking arm parallel to the ground in an out stretched manner, but before going to the ground.

Step 2) Tori right hand grasp uke's wrist whilst the left hand is at uke's elbow. Tori slide (maintaining contact all the time) his left hand along uke's arm to the wrist part. Tori's right hand change his grasp to place his palm on the outside of uke's outer hands.

Step 3) Tori should by now see that the grip is a nikajo grip. Apply the nikajo and remember that uke is always on his knees, do not let him stand up. Tori should maintain a strong kamae at all times to keep the lock steady. NB: The key factor to this lock is skeletal structural manipulation, not pain compliant. Always remember this.

From here, finish the technique to oase pin. Tori can choose to finish the osae pin via ichi (irimi) or ni (tenkan) version.

There! Shomen-uchi nikajo ichi kihon waza (text-book) version. Have fun.

Boon.

David Humm 02-11-2007 08:08 PM

Re: Nikyo Basics
 
Control uke's elbow with your leading hand as you make awase - create kuzushi as you continue to enter forward. With your other hand slide up uke's elevated arm to control kote, continue to enter ensuring you maintain kuzushi.

The key is controlling ma and entering at the right time to establish connection before uke has sufficient energy in the attacking arm for it to be dangerous.

awase - blending
kuzushi- taking posture
ma - distance
kote - wrist


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:44 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.