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xuzen 02-02-2007 02:33 AM

Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Non-cooperative tanto dori

As you can see, grabbing the wrist and trying to to grapple with a knife wielding assailant is not the brightest of idea, IMO. To me, it is very risky, as the chances of getting cuts is just to prohibitive.

I have some thoughts wrt to better ways to deal with such scenario (empty hand wise), but I reserve my judgement till I hear more opinion from other posters.

Kali people like Mike Gallagher, would you like to comment?

Boon.

Mike Hamer 02-02-2007 03:00 AM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Me and a friend do something simmilar to that but just for wrist control and off balancing empty handed. Trying to pull off a Nikkyo when someones really resiting is very hard! But I guess I shouldn't be fighting for a Nikkyo if thats not the direction he's intent on....eh? I agree with you on the bit about approaching someone with a knife like that, just grabbing for their wrist seems like suicide to me. Let em' come at you and wait for them to make a commited strike then FABWAM!

raul rodrigo 02-02-2007 03:56 AM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
I have a friend who's trained in kali. he showed us some of their moves. I quickly decided i wanted no part of anyone trained in that art. the only way to deal with it, it seems, is to train in it yourself. Which i will get around to one of these days.

SeiserL 02-02-2007 04:57 AM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
I trained in FMA/JKD with the late Ted Lucaylucay.

IMHO, a trained knife fighter never attacks, only ambushes.

From an Aikido perspective, work on footwork to get off the line/angle of attack and controlling the weapon while taking balance.

Cross-training is about the only way for this to make sense.

kocakb 02-02-2007 05:44 AM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Good for training, but it is not fair. The guy with the knife is free in movement, just tries to cut his opponent. But the defensive guy is restricted, can not punch or kick for off-balancing (to not harm his friend). Therefore, he only grasps and tries to find an opening to do a technique (and is able at the end of the clip). I don't think it is a good idea to grasp the opponents wrist, if he is stronger, you would have no chance...

DonMagee 02-02-2007 05:56 AM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Quote:

Bülent Koçak wrote:
Good for training, but it is not fair. The guy with the knife is free in movement, just tries to cut his opponent. But the defensive guy is restricted, can not punch or kick for off-balancing (to not harm his friend). Therefore, he only grasps and tries to find an opening to do a technique (and is able at the end of the clip). I don't think it is a good idea to grasp the opponents wrist, if he is stronger, you would have no chance...

Well you could always throw some boxing headgear and MMA sparing gloves on.

Jonathan 02-02-2007 08:57 AM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Yeesh! What are those guys playing at? I tell you what, you come toward me with your hands extended out in front of you like the big fellow in the clip was doing when I'm attacking you with a knife and I'll be carving up your hands! See how well you disarm me with the flesh of your hands cut to ribbons. Also extending you arms like the big guy is doing exposes wrist and brachial arteries which, if severed, would, in the case of a brachial artery cut, make him bleed to death in about five minutes.

Straining and struggling like these two in the clip were doing with each other does not work in a real knife attack situation. The big guy is way too preoccupied with the knife and the threat it represents to him. YOu can see it in the way he moves. With his mind thus preoccupied he is unable to deal creatively and effectively with his attacker. I'd suggest he forget about getting cut and focus on relaxing, moving past the knife, and dealing with his attacker. As he does this he'll find, in time, that he gets cut less and less without having to struggle for control of the knife. This is the nice thing about training: I can survive my mistakes and learn from them.

Just a few of the many thoughts that sprung to mind as I watched this video clip.



ANd why isn't the big guy using strikes? Very...odd.

Tim Fong 02-02-2007 11:36 AM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Raul,

In Quezon City I'm sure you have a lot of options for training kali =)

Mikel,

Against a trained opponent (like the guys Raul mentioned) you are unlikely to see a "fully committed" strike. And that doens't mean it's weak either.

Neil Mick 02-02-2007 01:05 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
I once got into a friendly discussion with a mudansha about knife attacks. He opined that a real knife-fighter would simply carve up any aikidoist stupid enough to try an aikido technique, as the strikes in knife fighting are very different than what we practice.

So, to test his theory, we tried it. I'd try and come in with a technique, and he would tap the tanto against my arm, leg, whatever, then dance away. After a few rounds of this I realized that I was (figuratively) bleeding to death, trying to take that knife away. And so, I came in with a full, open stance (not trying to take his blade away, this time), which threw the uke so off that I slipped in and gave a very satisfying koshi.

Whereupon I would likely have fallen over from loss of blood, were it a real fight. :D But the point was made.

Ron Tisdale 02-02-2007 01:29 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
50% life 50% death. Take a shot...who knows?

52% life 48% death...sounds better.

Either way...

Best,
Ron

Michael Varin 02-02-2007 03:07 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Hello Everyone,

I'm one of the guys in this clip. Thanks for the comments.

Allow me to put it in context for you.

This is a training exercise. It is not meant to represent knife fighting. As pointed out earlier:
Quote:

Lynn Seiser wrote:
IMHO, a trained knife fighter never attacks, only ambushes.

Quote:

Jonathan Hay wrote:
when I'm attacking you with a knife and I'll be carving up your hands!

Even calling it tanto dori is a little misleading. The idea for the grabber is to maintain a strong grip, the knife holder to stay relaxed and escape, or for either to apply a technique and counteract the techniques being applied. It begins after a firm grip has been applied. Strikes aren't allowed so the focus can be put on working with the grip. The knife is there as an incentive. We do several versions of this where the focus is slightly different. We also use varying degrees of resistance; on a scale of 1-10 this one was about 9. No, it isn't fair. . . But it's fun, and good training, as long as you know where it fits in.

Michael

Michael Varin 02-02-2007 03:42 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Quote:

Jonathan Hay wrote:
See how well you disarm me with the flesh of your hands cut to ribbons. Also extending you arms like the big guy is doing exposes wrist and brachial arteries which, if severed, would, in the case of a brachial artery cut, make him bleed to death in about five minutes.

A lot can happen in five minutes, especially when considering multiple attackers. There are numerous instances where people get shot in the face and don't stop coming. You just never know.

ChrisHein 02-02-2007 05:10 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Hey guys,
I'm the other guy in the video I guess I'm the "big fellow". The idea of the drill is to train both the grabbing and the knife useing side. It is not a fair drill, but it's also not competitive, so it doesn't matter that it's one sided. Also the drill doesn't start till one person has a secure grab, as this lets us focus on the escapes and techniqual aspects of Aikido instead of the parts you normally see trained in standard jiyu waza.

I have talked at length on Aikiweb many times of my oppinions of Aikido as a weapons system. I believe the techniques of Aikido are (mostly) designed to deal with a guy who trys to restrain your weapon hand. If you look you can see Mike useing Nikkyo several times to free his knife hand and stab me. We are attempting to train the techniques against resistance, as most Aikidoka will freeze up when the face resistance for the frist time, we are trying to train that out of ourselves.

There are lots of variations we are working on, and this is just one of them. Please don't look at this as a Knife fight, or a Tanto Dori, or any other such, it's only a randori with a knife.

-Christopher Hein
p.s. Jonathan, if you don't worrie about the knife you will be cut much more, if you don't believe me, you should come to our dojo, and we'll go a few minutes and see how you do.

Mike Hamer 02-02-2007 05:54 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Quote:

Tim Fong wrote:
Raul,

In Quezon City I'm sure you have a lot of options for training kali =)

Mikel,

Against a trained opponent (like the guys Raul mentioned) you are unlikely to see a "fully committed" strike. And that doens't mean it's weak either.


Good point Tim. I cross train also, working with alot of different things. We are tought to make a train kind of motion with the knife hand and our off hand making it very difficult to get a disarm. Quick small movements.

raul rodrigo 02-02-2007 06:24 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Quote:

Lynn Seiser wrote:
I trained in FMA/JKD with the late Ted Lucaylucay.

IMHO, a trained knife fighter never attacks, only ambushes.

From an Aikido perspective, work on footwork to get off the line/angle of attack and controlling the weapon while taking balance.

Cross-training is about the only way for this to make sense.


Since you've cross-trained in FMA, Seiser sensei, you're the man to ask: can aikido waza deal effectively with an attacker who's trained in kali? Or is having Kali experience the only effective answer?

DH 02-02-2007 09:40 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Some advice
1. If your facing a guy who can actually use a knife your are going to get cut or die. Its too fast in the right hands with three or four cuts and stabs a second. The knife is only one tool. You still have two hands, two feet, a body and quite possibly a decent predatory mind to deal with on top of that. In short while you are preoccupied with getting stabbed and cut he will be preoccupied with taking you apart in other ways. Knives are a great intimidation tool. A mental game. You may be surprised at the level of understanding of their affect on people-that has been discussed on the wrong side of the tracks.

The good news
2. Most men don't know how to use a knife.
And
3. Most martial artists think they can

In the real world the best course of action?
Leave.

If you have to stay for some odd reason and you are not trained? You're probably going to die.
If you have seriously trained.
You're probably going to just get seriously cut.

Your best defense is your mindset and being prepared to face blood and pain. And you are going to be hard pressed to develope that in a dojo. There's nothing to really say here. Trying to find someone with experience who can handle this stuff can be difficult.

I've never seen Aikido knife techniques that were worth anything-either in attack and defense.
Cheers
Dan

xuzen 02-02-2007 10:11 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Quote:

LynnS wrote:
IMHO, a trained knife fighter never attacks, only ambushes.
From an Aikido perspective, work on footwork to get off the line/angle of attack and controlling the weapon while taking balance.

Thanks, Lynn. You certainly put things into perspective. Getting off the trajectary of hostile intent is my first priority. Not grappling like what is shown on the clip. Hence, tenkan and irimi movement is of primary importance.

Quote:

Jonathan wrote:
Yeesh! What are those guys playing at? I tell you what, you come toward me with your hands extended out in front of you like the big fellow in the clip was doing when I'm attacking you with a knife and I'll be carving up your hands! See how well you disarm me with the flesh of your hands cut to ribbons. Also extending you arms like the big guy is doing exposes wrist and brachial arteries which, if severed, would, in the case of a brachial artery cut, make him bleed to death in about five minutes.

My thoughts exactly.

Quote:

Neil Mick wrote:
So, to test his theory, we tried it. I'd try and come in with a technique, and he would tap the tanto against my arm, leg, whatever, then dance away. After a few rounds of this I realized that I was (figuratively) bleeding to death, trying to take that knife away. And so, I came in with a full, open stance (not trying to take his blade away, this time), which threw the uke so off that I slipped in and gave a very satisfying koshi.

Neil, I have never done Kali or FMA stuff before. However, I do regularly experiment with my fellow dojo mates about knife disarm. My favourite role is as uke, and I regularly dice and slice their arm with my wooden tanto. I can imagine how dangerous a trained knife fighter is.

To MikeV and ChrisH, thanks for chipping in. And thanks for putting things into perspective. Your opinions are noted.

To me, when I do these tanto-dori with my sempai (he is 3rd Dan) I am Shodan...we tried it without prearraged sequence. As uke, I would feint, jab with my tanto, slice diagonally, try to slice his hands... you get the idea.

What I notice is my sempai will always move out of reach from me. He always draw me into his sphere and then... WHAM! He will shomen-ate, aigamae-ate (irimi-nage) or ushiro-ate and next thing I am on the floor. Oh and he also tends to slap my tanto hands away. He never grab, just slap it away (from the bruises I received, I will say, he slapped them quite forcefully).

Boon.

ChrisHein 02-03-2007 12:12 AM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Dan,
I agree with you. No doubt that the best option when facing a weapon (or any physical confrontation armed or not) is to leave. Barring that you must out range or control the weapon. If I am not armed out ranging even a knife is not possible so I must control the weapon. I agree there will probably be plenty of blood and pain, and I may likely die, yes.

Boon,
Personally I believe that the techniques of Aikido are designed for me to use when I have the weapon. They help me to free up my weapon hand so that I can keep using my weapon. In the practice we are doing, it is not particularly important that it's a knife, it could be a stick or a stun gun, or a pistol that we are using. It's that a knife is an easy thing for us to practice with. Looking at it from the perspective of being the person with the knife (or weapon of any type) you can see that you have the clear advantage, however if there are multiple attackers, and one of them can grab your weapon hand and control it for more then a few seconds, all of his friends can easily bring you down and finish you off. This is why I think these techniques are relevant. This is why I said this is NOT tanto dori, the focus is not on one guy taking the knife away, if anything it's on the knifer freeing himself up so he can cut more. The other guy does get the benefit of trying to control an armed attacker, but that's just a benefit.

If you are facing a man with a weapon all of the cards are stacked against you. You do not have range (even with a small weapon like a knife), you do not have the advantage close in (especially with a short weapon like a knife) so you cannot reasonably apply unarmed grappling methods (headlocks, bear hugs etc.). In short you are in a bad way. The only chance you may stand is to control the weapon hand so your attacker cannot use the weapon against you or your friends. This is done by grabbing the weapon hand.


I am in no way suggesting that it is a good idea to face a man with a knife, I would never choose to do that and I don't recommend it. However if I have to use a weapon, I want to make sure no one is going to be able to control my weapon hand, stopping me from cutting them up. This is what I believe Aikido's technical syllabus is designed to do, free my weapon hand as soon as possible so that if I have to face a mob, it's hard for them to bring me down.

L. Camejo 02-03-2007 06:43 AM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
This vid is pretty good at what the participants state it is supposed to achieve. We can see that the tanto wielder is giving his hand to his partner and then the exercise starts, this is not tanto dori as they stated.

This exercise is done by us actually as part of our tanto randori training for shiai. If I may just make some observations based on the vid:

The knife wielder has many opportunities to throw the empty handed partner via sokumen, irimi nage, shomen ate, ushiro ate and a host of other throws if more hip power and rotational force were used to end the face to face stalemate that happened once both hands became occupied with holding the knife hand and the other arm of the attacker. This actually shows how the Aikido techniques that are based on a wrist grab are designed to work. When one is resisting and trying to control the knife, the grab on the knife hand is very strong, this force can be used to do a host of throws and other waza just as they are practiced against wrist grabs in kata.

Like I said, not a bad vid to illustrate its stated goals. It looks quiote familiar to me.

As regards dealing with a trained knife wielder it may be best not to be unarmed if one can help it. However, attacks rarely catch us at our best so serious tanto training does have its place regardless of whether one will get cut. That is par for the course imho the key is to understand the dynamics and include "getting cut" as part of your training approach so it is dealt with.

Train on.

LC:ai::ki:

deepsoup 02-03-2007 08:45 AM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Quote:

Larry Camejo wrote:
This vid is pretty good at what the participants state it is supposed to achieve. We can see that the tanto wielder is giving his hand to his partner and then the exercise starts, this is not tanto dori as they stated.

I agree. I think I'd characterise this practice as hiketategeiko. The 'hiketate' suggests a kind of gopher - your partner is in a sense running errands for you, in resisting the techniques you try to apply, he's going out of his way to help you practice.

Quote:

Larry wrote:
The knife wielder has many opportunities to throw the empty handed partner via sokumen, irimi nage, shomen ate, ushiro ate and a host of other throws if more hip power and rotational force were used to end the face to face stalemate that happened once both hands became occupied with holding the knife hand and the other arm of the attacker.

He also has a few opportunities to apply the more percussive kind of atemi with his empty hand. Which brings me to this:

Quote:

Chris Hein wrote:
The only chance you may stand is to control the weapon hand so your attacker cannot use the weapon against you or your friends. This is done by grabbing the weapon hand.

I agree with the former, but not the latter. The trouble with grabbing the weapon hand is that you become entirely focussed on that hand. You can see it in the video a few times - toshu's posture goes, as he drops his head and he's actually looking closely at the weapon. The next time you try this drill, I'd suggest that you try keeping at least one hand open, in contact with tanto's arm/hand but not actually gripping it. As far as possible, don't look at the weapon, but look at tanto as a whole person, maybe even making eye contact. That way toshu is still aware of what's going on with the weapon, but also remains alive to the possibility of his own atemi waza - be it percussive atemi as a prelude to some other technique, or atemiwaza in the Shodokan sense, shomenate, aigamaeate, gyakugamaeate (ie: iriminage, sokumen iriminage, etc.)

Quote:

Larry wrote:
Like I said, not a bad vid to illustrate its stated goals. It looks quite familiar to me.

Funny that. :)
As Larry says, this is pretty familiar to the Shodothugs. There are quite a few drills along these lines, which are particularly useful for people who're interested in getting into some tanto shiai.

The Systema folks have some very interesting drills along these lines too, it might be worth checking out what they do if there's a good group nearby, or maybe getting a look at one of Vladimir Vasiliev's DVDs.

Sean
x

Ketsan 02-03-2007 08:29 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Quote:

Xu Wenfung wrote:
Non-cooperative tanto dori

As you can see, grabbing the wrist and trying to to grapple with a knife wielding assailant is not the brightest of idea, IMO. To me, it is very risky, as the chances of getting cuts is just to prohibitive.

I have some thoughts wrt to better ways to deal with such scenario (empty hand wise), but I reserve my judgement till I hear more opinion from other posters.

Kali people like Mike Gallagher, would you like to comment?

Boon.

How weird. Our resistive training (read: after class messing around with a tanto) looks nothing like that. Usually there's an attack made (which can be anything from a nasty little flick to full on chudan tsuki), which is deflected/slapped out of the way with one hand and the wrist taken with the other, atemi is put in with the first hand, or knee, foot, elbow, all of the above, followed by a technique. All emphasis is placed on bringing uke (the person holding the tanto, during the course of the messing around either or both tori and uke can end up taking ukemi) to the ground as quickly as possible rather than dealing with the tanto.

The first technique seldom works and it becomes something like a Judo match with Aikido techniques (and the odd Judo technique) and atemi. In one way or another it ends up on the floor, but not in a BJJ way (there's nothing so formal BJJ groundwork, uke gets up too fast to do anything other than drop on them), where either the tanto is taken with a wrist lock and maybe a "bit" of atemi, or we trap the arm (usually by sitting/kneeling on it) and try a choke or grab their nuts or something, whatever seems expedient and most likely to stop uke resisting in the shortest possible time.

Tori wins about 70-80% of the time if they're smart and fast enough to switch techniques just as uke starts to resist. If they attempt to force a technique on a resisting uke there's a high probability that they'll be killed horribly or uke will break free and attack again.

Michael Varin 02-03-2007 09:44 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Quote:

Alex Lawrence wrote:
How weird. Our resistive training looks nothing like that. Usually there's an attack made, which is deflected/slapped out of the way with one hand and the wrist taken with the other, atemi is put in with the first hand, or knee, foot, elbow, all of the above, followed by a technique. All emphasis is placed on bringing uke (the person holding the tanto) to the ground as quickly as possible rather than dealing with the tanto.

Tori wins about 70-80% of the time if they're smart and fast enough to switch techniques just as uke starts to resist. If they attempt to force a technique on a resisting uke there's a high probability that they'll be killed horribly or uke will break free and attack again.

Funny. We also do a drill where "uke" (with knife) can attack in any manner he chooses (below the neck), and "nage" (sans knife) seeks to apply technique, which could be deflecting, grabbing, evading, throwing, whatever he deems appropriate. Uke "wins" 95% of the time. No one's been killed yet though!

Do you feel having a knife put you at a disadvantage?

Just to reiterate, the video that started this thread was not tanto dori per se, but you should make a video of your tanto dori, and post it. I'd like to see what you're doing.

Mark Jakabcsin 02-03-2007 10:07 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Strike.....strike......STRIKE!

IMO, any defense of an open handed defender against a knife wielding attacker that does not include striking is fiction at best. Not to say that I do not train for the perfect moment where the attacker lunges in with minimal skill. This of course is the gravy train but not the real danger. IMO, defending against a knifer requires striking. Strike: the hand, wrist, forearm, elbow, bicep, tricep, body, head, etc. and repeatedly. Please do not assume I mean standing in one place. The defender MUST be moving, ALWAYS and the strikes must be part of the motion, i.e. escape (defend) and counter attacker are done in the same motion. Attempt to do one then the other and it is too slow. Joint locks, take downs, controls, etc. are an opporunity presented for a fraction of a second to be capitalized on but created by correct body postion and striking.

FYI, all strikes are not created equal. Find those that require minimal motion and deliver maximum effectiveness AND fit with your escapes. Good training drills that give the attacker full freedom generally give the best challenge.

Mark J.

Mark Jakabcsin 02-03-2007 10:35 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
Quote:

Alex Lawrence wrote:
Tori wins about 70-80% of the time if they're smart and fast enough to switch techniques just as uke starts to resist. If they attempt to force a technique on a resisting uke there's a high probability that they'll be killed horribly or uke will break free and attack again.

Wow!!!! !!!!! !!!!

I did not read this until after I posted. I really want to train with the group that has these results.....that is if the training method is valid. As mentioned above by another poster, these results indicate that having a knife is a disadvantage, not an advantange. Strange I say.

MJ

ChrisHein 02-03-2007 11:37 PM

Re: Non-cooperative tanto-dori (Discussion)
 
It is a funny world where a man with out a tool has the advantage over a man with a tool.


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