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MM 01-04-2007 01:54 PM

Ueshiba, Takeda, & 1921 - What happened?
 
Somewhere around 1921, Takeda visited Ueshiba in Ayabe. Ueshiba had built a small dojo. Takeda seemed to think that the techniques had changed. Not only that, but after talking to Ueshiba, Takeda changed the name to Daito-ryu Aikijutsu.

To throw a wrench in things, it was around 1920 that Ueshiba met Deguchi.

Supposedly from 1915 to 1919, Ueshiba studied only Daito-ryu.

My question is what happened around 1919-1921 when Takeda visits and finds changed techniques? Enough of a change to accept adding "aiki" to Daito-ryu.

What influenced that change? What happened? Anyone know?

Ellis Amdur 01-04-2007 05:50 PM

Re: Ueshiba, Takeda, & 1921 - What happened?
 
I don't know that this is exactly correct. Takeda lived with Ueshiba for six months, and among other things, may have taught him spear. I speculated on this in an article on AJ, and recently found some corroborating evidence. Tokimune recalls observing practice as a little boy during this time and seeing Takeda knock Ueshiba off his feet - spear against Ueshiba's juken. Rather than drama (other than the normal that Takeda brought with him), this was one of the most concentrated periods of training that Takeda ever offered anyone - six or more months, uninterrupted. If you read the bio of TAkeda, he, at various times, had one or another young man as his "star." For a long period of time, it was Ueshiba, and his staying at Ayabe was a mark of this. And just because the teacher "loved" the student didn't mean he'd be nice or praise him. In fact, Tokimune said that his father criticized Ueshiba more than anyone except him - and clearly explained that this was a mark of affection. Harshness by a teacher is a mark of the standards the teacher hopes the student will attain. (I had one teacher, very drunk, once say to me. "Ellis, I intend to give you everything I know. I shouldn't say this, but what the hell - I'm drunk. I am going to trash everything you do from now on. I am going to treat you to hell. I'm only telling you this because a Japanese guy would understand, but you are a foreigner and would probably think I only hated you." - --- and this doesn't necessarily mean that a) such behavior is not open to abuse b) a student might find it intolerable anyway). Anyway, I think people often misunderstand the reports of Takeda's harshness - he clearly cared deeply for Ueshiba, even sending others to check on his well-being in the mid-1930's when the 2nd Omotokyo Incident happened.
Anyway, apparently, it was Deguchi who suggested the name Aikiijutsu, not Ueshiba. And it certainly wasn't that Takeda saw that Ueshiba had created something new that he jumped on the band-wagon with. It was just that Deguchi came up with a name that Takeda thought reflected what he (Takeda) was doing.

Best

Fred Little 01-04-2007 06:49 PM

Re: Ueshiba, Takeda, & 1921 - What happened?
 
Quote:

Upon Morihei's return to Tanabe he found that his father had already passed away. Understandably, the death of his father left him in a state of depression and, in an effort to find a spiritual direction, he decided to move with his family to the Omoto center in Ayabe in the spring of 1920.

Under the guidance of Onisaburo Deguchi, Ueshiba engaged in farming and spiritual training. The enthusiastic and hard-working Morihei quickly won Onisaburo's confidence. Having learned of Morihei's martial skills, the Omoto leader encouraged him to provide martial arts instruction to followers of the religion. This led to the opening of his first dojo in his private residence, the Ueshiba Juku, where he taught the Daito-ryu jujutsu techniques he had learned from Sokaku Takeda. Ueshiba's reputation grew steadily and the ranks of practitioners in the tiny Ueshiba dojo swelled to include naval personnel from the port city of Maizuru. It is easy to imagine the pride that Onisaburo must have felt in having such a skilled martial artist in his midst. A photograph of Ueshiba inside his dojo reveals his massive, tank-like physique, and his tremendous physical strength is almost palpable [see photo, p. 38, AN94]. Sokaku Takeda's visit to Ayabe in 1922 was covered in some detail in the last issue [AN94]. Suffice it to say that this five-month period of intensive training under the demanding Takeda considerably deepened Ueshiba's grasp of Daito-ryu techniques. However, because of the mutual dislike of Onisaburo and Sokaku, the latter's impromptu visit to Ayabe also resulted in a strain in the relationship between Morihei and his jujutsu teacher that was never to be healed.
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=10

On the other hand, according to the history at the Swiss Shodokan Website:


Quote:

Morihei met Sokaku in 1916 in the town of Engaru in Hokkaido and studied under him. He received certificates in March 1917 and in 1923. On 15th September 1923 he became qualified to teach. The certificate reads something like this:

Instructor Morihei Ueshiba,

Before taking on any pupil in Daitoryu Aikijujitsu you should first make sure that they are of sound character.

When you teach someone make them write their name, age, address, place where taught and the period of instruction on your list of students along with their seal.

For every student you teach pay three yen membership fee to Sokaku Takeda.

September 15th, 1923
http://www.shodokan.ch/en/hist_takeda.html

So whatever strain is alluded to by Pranin, if the date on the Shodokan site is correct, Ueshiba was on sufficiently good terms with Takeda a year later to be awarded the Kyoju Dairi certificate, fully authorizing him to teach.

FL

MM 01-04-2007 07:07 PM

Re: Ueshiba, Takeda, & 1921 - What happened?
 
Ahhh, I did not know that it was Deguchi who suggested the name. That clears things up a bit. :) Thanks.

Still, it was the point of conception for the name, Aikido. Kind of important in that aspect.

Aran Bright 01-04-2007 10:44 PM

Re: Ueshiba, Takeda, & 1921 - What happened?
 
Correct me if I am wrong but I was under the impression the term aiki was used in other arts to name certain facets of the techniques. Was it at this time that the term aiki was first used to name an art?

Aran

Ellis Amdur 01-04-2007 11:23 PM

Re: Ueshiba, Takeda, & 1921 - What happened?
 
As far as I know, it's the first time that it was used in a "generic" sense - jujutsu, bojutsu, aikijutsu. But the term "aiki" is quite old. for example, Toda-ha Buko-ryu uses the term "aiki no koto" to refer to the kusarigama vs. naginata kata that are middle level techniques in the school. As best as I can tell, "aiki," in this case, means "fitting together," something that is required to make the kata work, a particular point of study at middle level.

best

PeterR 01-04-2007 11:40 PM

Re: Ueshiba, Takeda, & 1921 - What happened?
 
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote:
Ahhh, I did not know that it was Deguchi who suggested the name. That clears things up a bit. :) Thanks.

Still, it was the point of conception for the name, Aikido. Kind of important in that aspect.

Not sure it was Deguchi either. Prof. Shishida of Waseda Uni. says that it was most likely one of the military men inspired by a book that was in circulation at the time.

In any case, he also says that because of Ueshiba's relationship to Takeda (student-teacher) it was not him.

I got that from a draft of a conference presentation Shishida was making on the subject - it was based on the diary of Admiral Takeshita. Shishida doesn't say which military man - no smoking gun I'm afraid.

DH 01-05-2007 12:34 AM

Re: Ueshiba, Takeda, & 1921 - What happened?
 
According to Kodo Taiso- (Kodo Korikawa -Kodo-kai founder's- father) Takeda mentioned frequently to hsi students "apply aiki" here "do aiki" there (You would have to know what "apply Aiki" means in Daito ryu). At any rate it is even recorded in Taisos journals from before Ueshiba ever even met Takeda.
And again Yoshida Kotaro, Horikawa Kodo, Sagawa Yukioshi all said Takeda would look at folks and say.
"You are small so I will teach you Aiki"
"You are big so I will teach you jujutsu"
He clearly and repetitively differentiated twixt the two?
Why?
And again the art had jujutsu, aikijujutsu, and Aiki-no-jutsu (art of aiki) What did it mean to say these things?

Hope beyond one man.
Suffice to say there is a reason Taiso, Kodo, Sagawa all looked at Ueshiba and his skills said ya...so? Not to diss him, but that they knew in painstaking detail every, single, thing he was doing. The world only heard of Ueshiba -over- these men for certain reasons. Skill not being one of them. Yes Ueshiba was very skilled but If you really want to get serious and think things through. He never stood above thse men in skill. Once the veil veil was lifted Sagawa and Kodo's skill shone like the sun. and even Ueshiba's own students were in awe of Sokaku's skill, if not his personality.
Why do I bring it up? Its not one upmanship that I am pointing to. Its greater than any of that nonsense.
Its hope
If Takeda, Sagawa, Kodo, Hisa and...Ueshiba were taught it
It means it was NOT the skill of one man.
Why is that important?
It means its teachable.

Name change.

To "imply" or insinuate that Ueshiba changed the name is incorrect.
Be mindful- Deguchi's or any other's suggestion was made to?.....Takeda. It was he they went to for authority that they change the name. Why him?
And why the suggestion? Did it have any meaning other than the fact that Deguchin saw aiki? The power of aiki, and suggested it was so profound that it should be a corrnerstone for the name.
Secondly, what he saw at that time was Ueshiba still training under Takeda doing....Daito ryu.
The real question for those unfamilair with Kodo kai and Sagawa is what was this Aiki?
Why was teaching "it" to people different than jujutsu? Why is it that even today the Sagawa and Kodo branches are stand alone? They are "different." Why and how could Sagawa be so powerful into his 80's. That kodo was know for having men push ro grab him and lose their power.
What were they doing that was different

From Daito ryu to Aikido
Just to be correct the ultimate name of Aikido was granted by a governing board. Ueshiba had nothing to do with it. It came about after Ueshiba was asked to do a public demonstration. The orginizors wanted to name his art as something different. Some have suggested it was to not anger Sokaku. In any event it was agreed and recorded that this committee suggested the name "Aikido." Again Ueshiba had nothing to do with it and he himself had been searching for a name, going through signing and passing out scroll (direct copeis of Daito Ryu's Hiden Mokuroku)as; Daito ryu Aikijujutsu, Daito ryu Aikibudo, Aoi ryu. Just "Aikibudo," on and on. So "Aikido" seemed to be a fit.

Cheers
Dan

MM 01-05-2007 04:31 AM

Re: Ueshiba, Takeda, & 1921 - What happened?
 
Even with the term "aiki" in existence, there is still something here that created a change. Whether that change came from Deguchi, a military man, or even Takeda himself, something happened that caused Daito-ryu to become Daito-ryu aikijutsu.

While that may not seem significant, it appears to be the first time "aiki" was ever used in a name. And had it not been used, going from aikijutsu to Aikido, even from a governing board, probably wouldn't have happened.

As Ellis stated, it could just be that Takeda was being harsh with Ueshiba when he visited. In fact, if he had taken a dislike to Deguchi, it's highly probable that he would yell and say that the techniques were changed. Especially considering Ueshiba was teaching Deguchi's followers. We know that Takeda and Deguchi didn't like each other. But, think about that. Takeda doesn't like Deguchi. Ueshiba is teaching Omoto kyo followers. Deguchi doesn't like Takeda. But, yet, somehow, in the middle of all that, Takeda changes the name of his art.

I don't understand Japanese culture nearly as well as I should, but does that sound like something that should have happened?

DH 01-05-2007 07:28 AM

Re: Ueshiba, Takeda, & 1921 - What happened?
 
Hi Mark
Well how much is going to be publicly broadcast?
Its too much water under the bridge and yakin about issues that can't be resolved.
First of all Daito ryu as an art, never "changed" from Daito ryu jujutsu to Daito ryu aikijujutsu.
It always "was" jujutsu, aikijujutsu and aiki-no-jutsu.

Further, to say that "Under Ueshibas watch the techniques changed" is not a positive commentary made by any in Daito ryu!!

Moreover, how is it that the technical changes he was bringing, resulted in his still awarding scrolls (the use of the Daito ryu hidden mokuroku) and his changing of the very arts name on it in Ueshiba's own writing (one can argue whether a teaching representative had a write to change the actual name of an art while using it own scrolls)

Was it simply a bid for reputation? His nephew conceded that when Ueshiba was given permssion to teach Ueshiba suddenly appeared in full formal get-up and told him with pride that he was finally going to become a jujutsu teacher. His nephew thought the display was a bit over the top. Did it reveal a bit of a need? And was it a causal factor of his latter wanting all the credit for himself?

Because folks are so concentrated on Ueshiba and his notoriety they forget that Takeda had his own very firmly established reputation thorugh decades of work. Realize at this time that Takeda was traveling throughout Japan teaching Military and Police, very high ranking military people and very high ranking in society as well. Including princes and princesses. In short, contrary to all the overly exaggerated bad press we hear today it was highly unlikely he was successfully navigating those circles with an unstable personality.
It is just as probable that he was, in the presence of a Ueshibas' students simply angry at Ueshiba's behavior and the use of the art, while changing the name. To close the angles and make the techniques less dangerous, and to open the circles to make it both easier to learn and do and prettier. Is not something I'd be labeling an improvement any time soon.

If you read some of the interviews and then also read between the lines you can understand why a friend of Sagawa and Takeda was sent to Ueshiba with a letter containing 5 questions outlining the "behavior" of Ueshiba. Outlining in essense, a clear intent. "Why are you lying?"

There is no -longer- any doubt as to where his art came from. But there was a concerted effort to greatly minimize Takeda and Daito ryu's influence. Again contrary to the old "aikido" mantra of him "needing to change it and get away from this maniac. One has to consider other questions. Since, Takeda had in fact, a very good reputation among both the well to do and the military and police, and among the general populace-to the point of a newspaper sending a reporter to hunt him down for an interview all the way to Hokkaido, just what was he running away from? As an aside it is interesting that in that same interview -It was Takeda -not- Ueshiba who stated that the art was for self-defense and to control the opponent not to harm.
Quote
"This technique is a perfect self-defense art where you avoid being cut, hit or kicked while at the same time you don't hit, kick or cut. As the attack comes you handle it expediently using the power of your opponent. So even women and children can execute these techniques. But I make it a rule not to teach the techniques to anyone without proper references because they are frightening if misused. I understand that there are people teaching these techniques in Tokyo [probably a reference to Morihei Ueshiba who was teaching in Tokyo at this time], but I don't think you can teach other people well unless you are very skilled yourself.""

Full interview here- http://www.aikidojournal.com/article...aper+interview

In either event it is clear that it was the internal skills of Takeda that enabled Sagawa, Kodo, Hisa and Ueshiba to be so impressive. It was Ueshiba who -all while demonstrating the true skills- in fact rarely if ever, taught them.
So why would he want to change the name? And distance himself from such a well-known powerhouse?
Did he want sole credit for "creating" this loving new vision?
Or did he simply want his own "claim to fame"
We'll never know.

Cheers
Dan

DH 01-05-2007 07:50 AM

Re: Ueshiba, Takeda, & 1921 - What happened?
 
Edit time ran out

Another way to look at it is.....It was suggested that the Aiki component was so profound the art should be called by the later part of its very own syllabus "Aikijujutsu."
I think that's more probable, and fits Occam's rule a bit more easily than chasing scenarios clues through the snows of Hokkaido.
Further it gives the credit where it is due.
I am working on the P.M.

Dan

Mike Sigman 01-05-2007 08:07 AM

Re: Ueshiba, Takeda, & 1921 - What happened?
 
I'm reminded of the professor who spent 40 years trying to prove that the Illiad was not written by Homer, but by another Greek of the same name.

MM 01-05-2007 08:54 AM

Re: Ueshiba, Takeda, & 1921 - What happened?
 
Quote:

Dan Harden wrote:
Edit time ran out

Another way to look at it is.....It was suggested that the Aiki component was so profound the art should be called by the later part of its very own syllabus "Aikijujutsu."
I think that's more probable, and fits Occam's rule a bit more easily than chasing scenarios clues through the snows of Hokkaido.
Further it gives the credit where it is due.
I am working on the P.M.

Dan

Hi Dan,
I agree that Daito-ryu never changed. My take on this is more of a "name" slant. I didn't mean that the art had changed such that it warranted a name change. I meant that something happened that caused Takeda to change the art's name. There was aiki in Daito ryu before the name change and after. So, why didn't the name get changed before? Why did it take a visit (and it seems it was the very first visit) to Ueshiba at Ayabe under Deguchi influence to change the name? Doesn't that seem weird to you? Takeda didn't like Deguchi. Ueshiba caught in the middle of both. And under those conditions, Takeda changes a name?

When you talk about Aikido history, this event is the conception for the name, "Aikido". Doesn't mean the art ever changed, really. But something did happen there. Maybe it's just me, but it seemed really weird.

Let me try another angle. Put techniques aside. Maybe Ueshiba experimented and changed something, maybe he didn't. Doesn't really matter. What matters is that Takeda has taught Daito-ryu seminars in a lot of places. He's met a lot of people and had some "star" students. But, then at a point in time (1921-ish), Takeda shows up and meets Ueshiba and Deguchi. Doesn't matter what is really being taught or how. But something happens that causes Takeda to change his art's name to aikijutsu.

I just wondered if anyone had any other information that might shed light on that meeting between the three. Why Takeda allowed the addition of aiki to jutsu?

Thanks,
Mark

Ellis Amdur 01-05-2007 10:04 AM

Re: Ueshiba, Takeda, & 1921 - What happened?
 
Mark - you are trying so hard! And causing Dan to wax polemic at such length (everything he says is correct, I think except for the aikido naming, but it's your fault he's so exercised). 1) Takeda changed the name before. It was called Yamato-ryu - and Yoshida Kotaro said, "No, the kanji is read Daito-ryu" and Takeda said, "OK." So now Takeda is at Ayabe, teaching his then favorite student - intensely. And at that time, there is absolutely NO account that UEshiba was trying to do anything different - he was just doing Daito-ryu. And Takeda was probably talking about "aiki this, aiki that" and another smart man like Kotaro - Deguchi - who could read, even though he had an aggravating personality, said something like, "You keep talking about aiki. And it sure isn't like jujutsu. Why not call it aikijutsu?" And Takeda said, "Sure." The rounding of the corners, etc., All that came FAR afterwards. I met a student of a son of one of UEshiba's oldest Omoto DR disciples, who, of course, called what he did Aikido. The son said that his father's "aikido" was really different. It was "sharp," he "cut" the corners, etc. etc. (I'm going to pull a "Dan" here and as a rhetorical question - Why did so many of the prewar deshi either quit and form their own group, quit entirely, or hold themselves far away from the post-war aikikai? - - - - - Yes, I think Ueshiba got BETTER after the war, but he no longer taught how he did it - a lot of which was the pre-war instruction - ummmm Daito-ryu called something else - - - - and he rounded the angles for this other thing he was propogating, which Dan described so elegantly in so few words ;) somewhere in one of the threads).
And DAn, BTW - the aikido name change was done by the Butokukai, upon a presentation of Hirai Minoru, because they wanted to make a "section" of the Butokukai that included all the non-judo arts that had grappling - jujutsu was in the aikido section!!!!! Because they didn't want an argument with the torite and kogusoku and kempo and koshi no mawari and hakuda guys saying that they weren't doing jujutsu. So aikido was chosen cause NOBODY was doing it - including the aikido people!!
Best

Mike Sigman 01-05-2007 11:06 AM

Re: Ueshiba, Takeda, & 1921 - What happened?
 
We have reasonably nice records of interviews that have been done in the last decade or so that give us a limited insight into *some* of what happened in the early days, but we're not totally clear. Some things we know happened; some things *probably* happened; somethings *maybe* happened; a lot we just don't know.

In terms of Ueshiba's "internal" body skills compared with Takeda's, we'll probably never really know. Note that Ueshiba turned out deshi and other students who "did Aikido", but they certainly didn't use the internal skills in exactly the same way Ueshiba did because Ueshiba simply didn't teach those skills. Abe, Tohei, and others have publicly stated that they got their training and insights into "internal" skills from other sources. Their Aikido is similar to Ueshiba's, but in many ways it is quite different.

My grasp of the skills that Tohei uses is that yes, they are based on the same general principles as all the other "internal" skills found in India, China, Japanese other arts, etc., but they take a different direction and emphasis. Takeda certainly had some "internal" skills, but those too were borrowed from the general source and were not something that Takeda discovered himself..... were these the same skills that Ueshiba wound up with or did he simply get his version through other sources and his own understanding? Should we constantly point out that Takeda wouldn't have an art of his own if he hadn't gotten the knowledge of internal skills from one of his teachers, or can that be mentioned as an obvious point not worth constantly belaboring. I know the love I would engender if I went on a Daito-Ryu list and kept bringing that same point up endlessly. ;)

Unless we were there... which none of us were... many of these questions and their subtleties will never be fully understood. A good start for a real understanding might be approached from the idea that the Aikido of Ueshiba and Tohei was based on the ultra-relaxed faction of ki training as opposed to the harder "tension" training approaches of Shaolin. Maybe that would be something to bear in mind? Both approaches stem from the same core principles, but they're quite different in many ways.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

gregstec 01-05-2007 11:44 AM

Re: Ueshiba, Takeda, & 1921 - What happened?
 
Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:
My grasp of the skills that Tohei uses is that yes, they are based on the same general principles as all the other "internal" skills found in India, China, Japanese other arts, etc.,

Hi Mike,

I have noticed that in a few of your recent posts you have referred to Tohei and his 'Internal' skills. In your opinion, do you think that his Ki development methods are sound tools that can help to improve internal skills? I look forward to your response.

Thank you

Greg Steckel

Mike Sigman 01-05-2007 11:59 AM

Re: Ueshiba, Takeda, & 1921 - What happened?
 
Quote:

Greg Steckel wrote:
I have noticed that in a few of your recent posts you have referred to Tohei and his 'Internal' skills. In your opinion, do you think that his Ki development methods are sound tools that can help to improve internal skills? I look forward to your response.

Hi Greg:

I'm not fully decided, mainly because I have some reservations. For the most part, many of the western Ki-Aikido people I've met only have limited skills. However, I've met a few that had what I would consider "acceptable" (within a broad sprectrum; I don't mean that as an oblique trivialization of their abilities) skills. My general opinion is that it's not a bad way to start at all IF there are people within the dojo that really have good skills to emulate in the process. If you just try to "relax", you're not going to learn much and you're going to pick up bad and difficult-to-correct habits.

So with those caveats, I'd say yes, I like Tohei's general approach. Bear in mind that I speak from a position that I can also criticize; i.e., it's difficult to get really good skills without a lot of training and input, not to mention hard work. My opinions are not meant to be from a know-it-all perspective.

From what I've seen and felt of Ki-Society members, the level is not as high as I would have hoped (I actually pull for them, in many ways) and I feel that the "relax and let the Ki of the Universe do it for you" approach is limited (it seems to be almost ignorant of some of the other possibilities with these skills). But as a start, fine.

At the recent Ki-Society workshop I attended, I felt like a couple of the Lawrence, Kansas people were ahead of most Ki-Society members I've met, but then again they have Tsubaki Sensei... he appears to be a boost to learning that most dojos simply don't have.

Sorry to give such a lengthy mixed-bag response, Greg, but I'm trying to be honest and fair.

Regards,

Mike

MM 01-05-2007 12:30 PM

Re: Ueshiba, Takeda, & 1921 - What happened?
 
Quote:

Ellis Amdur wrote:
Mark - you are trying so hard!

LOL, well, I guess it can't be said that I'm a slacker.

Quote:

Ellis Amdur wrote:
And causing Dan to wax polemic at such length (everything he says is correct, I think except for the aikido naming, but it's your fault he's so exercised).

I'll probably pay for it, too, whenever I see him again. :)

Quote:

Ellis Amdur wrote:
1) Takeda changed the name before ...

I snipped a bit, but duly noted. Thanks.

Quote:

Ellis Amdur wrote:
(I'm going to pull a "Dan" here and as a rhetorical question - Why did so many of the prewar deshi either quit and form their own group, quit entirely, or hold themselves far away from the post-war aikikai? - - - - - Yes, I think Ueshiba got BETTER after the war, but he no longer taught how he did it - a lot of which was the pre-war instruction

I liked what Klickstein wrote in AikiNews # 28 (I know the issue because I just read it yesterday). He quoted an angry Ueshiba (upon seeing beginners (up to 3 dan) who were doing dance-like, light touch Aiki): "It took me 60 years of hard training to understand enough to move like that. How do you expect to do it in a few short years?"

Thanks,
Mark

gregstec 01-05-2007 01:17 PM

Re: Ueshiba, Takeda, & 1921 - What happened?
 
Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:
Hi Greg:

I'm not fully decided, mainly because I have some reservations......

Mike,

Thanks for the reply. I understand your reservations. I first trained in Aikido with the Ki society back in the mid 70s in Guam when I was stationed there with the Navy. At that time, 'Ki' was the way to go and all the other organizations were just missing the point - well, that was their story line at the time. On returning to the States in 77, I eventually drifted away from Aikido due to the sparse dojos available then. However, I started up again a few yeas ago and have been bouncing around between AAA, ASU, Aikikai, and a couple independent dojos; but no Ki society dojos. During this time, I have run into a handful of aikidoka that are the "real deal" that can get into my center and do what they want with me where I have no control. However, with most, I generally can control energy and direction of the technique as uke.

Like you, I have an interest in the internal energies and have been looking in many areas for the 'secrets' that would lead to them. Since none of the aikidoka I ran across in the States were talking about Ki, I thought the answer certainly was not there; I even invested money in some of the vibrational medicine books you referred to in your posts. Funny thing happened along this path; a lot of the stuff I was running across was very similar with a lot of the basic Ki stuff I was taught back in the 70s. Based on that, I started to re-visit those principles and methods and incorporated them into my daily personal training and I am slowly starting to feel changes in how my techniques are starting to flow like they used to years ago.

Anyway, thanks again for your insights - we have a mutual martial acquaintance that thinks your views of internal energies are 'spot' on and I have a tendency to agree with him.


Best Regards

Greg Steckel

Mike Sigman 01-05-2007 01:33 PM

Re: Ueshiba, Takeda, & 1921 - What happened?
 
Quote:

Greg Steckel wrote:
During this time, I have run into a handful of aikidoka that are the "real deal" that can get into my center and do what they want with me where I have no control. However, with most, I generally can control energy and direction of the technique as uke.

Well, even though the kokyu/ki-related things can get far more sophisticated than most of the stuff that's been discussed on the forum, you can still look at it as roughly a step up in manipulating forces, energies, your own body, etc.... not something metaphysical. Once you get some abilities in these skills, you can interrupt and block an unfinished technique by someone who also has these skills. Just a step up. Of course, it seems pretty obvious that Ueshiba based Aikido on this second step and not on the first, but we've discussed that many times. ;)
Quote:

Anyway, thanks again for your insights - we have a mutual martial acquaintance that thinks your views of internal energies are 'spot' on and I have a tendency to agree with him.
Well every year I get better... which means that the stuff I did the year before was not "spot on". Which further means that the stuff I'm doing right now, while far better than what I did, say, ten years ago, is still not "spot on". Zu bald alt; Zu spaet klug. "Too soon old; Too late smart". ;)

Regards,

Mike


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