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-   -   different ways of applying kotegaeshi (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11320)

Mike Hamer 11-15-2006 03:25 AM

different ways of applying kotegaeshi
 
At my Aikido dojo we are taught to apply kotegaeshi by placing one hand on uke for the grip, but using the other as a type of "hand blade" cutting towards uke through his hand.
I also train in Instinctive Response Training, where we practice with everything ranging from chokes, grappling, joint locks, weapons, etc. Anyway, we practice something that is clearly kotegaeshi, but there we use a way of doing it that Ive heard called a "butterfly grip" where instead you use both of your hands to grip uke's hand and apply the technique. I asked why, and I was told that this makes it harder for uke to turn his wrist out of it......what do you think?

Amir Krause 11-15-2006 06:00 AM

Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi
 
Each technique has multiple variations. In some cases, the variations emerge from differing assumptions with regard to the reality.

Without going to detail, I would go for the Aikido version, it sounds more similar to the one we use. While If I understand the IRT grab you described, you only have both thumbs on the back of the hand (I have seen this variation in some other M.A.).
The advantages of the aikido variation as we use it are:
-> Your "other hand" can apply more pressure. Full hand is much stronger then thumb.
-> Your "other hand" can shift to deflect slaps more easily.
-> Your ability to shift techniques if the situation varies is increased.

Then again, perhaps I misunderstood your meaning in one of the descriptions and my explanation is moot :-(

Amir

ian 11-15-2006 06:05 AM

Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi
 
I think the 'butterfly grip' (is that 2 hands on the hand, thumbs pointing upwards towards their fingers?) is a stronger and easy grip to apply, but I quite like the wrist grab and then pushing with the other hand since it enables more motility of the other hand (allowing it to change to a strike to the face of a block). Many times when I've seen kote-gaeshi applied in self-defence classes it is done immediately in front of the attacker with no concern for the other attackers hand. Admittedly simpler (and also can still be effective), but doesn't fit in as well with the whole integrated structure of aikido (being able to change and adapt to ukes response, and the techniques all pretty much being the same movements). I suppose as well, kotegaeshi as we do it is better for weapons taking as you do the technique.

Ian

Sorry Amir if I've repeated you a bit - you submitted whilst I was still writing this!

Mato-san 11-15-2006 07:13 AM

Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi
 
We have a safe variation were as you roll the fingers of uke back into his own fist on the natural curve whilst gripping his wrist with the other hand and further then, pull him into your navel or centre (very effective, very painful and very safe), also we use the cut across version, all in all what a lovely technique.

Ron Tisdale 11-15-2006 09:08 AM

Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi
 
I like the variation mentioned...even though of course every variation has it's weaknesses. Try crossing your thumbs (one over the other) as you apply the control.

Best,
Ron

Mato-san 11-15-2006 09:28 AM

Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi
 
What do yo mean Ron in detail, I am interested what you have to say.
Do you mean as uke?

Mato-san 11-15-2006 09:32 AM

Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi
 
sorry I got it....as nage...sounds nice, will give it a go.
I have found with the cut across waza you need to kill the thumb and rest your cut firmly and quickly or useless..

Ron Tisdale 11-15-2006 09:58 AM

Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi
 
Can anyone figure out how to base uke's hand without grabbing? That's a nice one...uke rarely even realizes what waza you used to throw them.

Best,
Ron

Mato-san 11-15-2006 10:00 AM

Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi
 
Just blend

Mato-san 11-15-2006 10:01 AM

Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi
 
well said

Mato-san 11-15-2006 10:06 AM

Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi
 
My Sensei always says "just be natural" .....if it counters "just blend" .......it gives me shivers just thinking about it! We know it works....there is so many forms......Just blend!
AMEN

Lan Powers 11-15-2006 10:16 AM

Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi
 
I use both versions of the kotegaeshi mentioned. The "classic" if you will, version is whole-hand pressing/curling uke's fingers into his center (or off to the side a bit towards the balance "hole".
But when uke takes a big nice hi-fall it is very nice to slip the press hand around for the extra support for his rotation point. great when we are learning hi-falls since it feels so secure to both parties.
Lan

Mato-san 11-15-2006 10:40 AM

Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi
 
Yeah, everyone wants to break a bone...........tat is done easy....I feel like I have made my point......there is shades and dynamics to it!
Peace

Erick Mead 11-15-2006 10:56 AM

Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:
Can anyone figure out how to base uke's hand without grabbing? That's a nice one...uke rarely even realizes what waza you used to throw them.

If you mean where uke's wrist is clapped between the inside of each of nage's wrists and then the throw happens with no fingers even making contact -- yeah -- love that one ... it teeters on the brink of sumi-otoshi. Great for training proper maai.

Mato-san 11-15-2006 11:07 AM

Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi
 
Amen

MM 11-15-2006 11:18 AM

Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi
 
I'll probably get hammered for this, but ...

variations don't matter.

The reason there are variations is because the principle is applied in different manners. Apply the principle and forget about the variations, they'll follow naturally.

kuzushi ... tsukuri ... kake. You can't get kake without going through the others.

Kotegaeshi can be applied a multitude of ways. Learn the principle underlying the technique and don't focus on the technique so much.

Learn two ways ... either focus on internal center and uke will be effected from this. Or learn to affect uke by affecting his/her center. If you learn those, the handwork and footwork is a piece of cake. Or in other terms, the principle is the ura and the handwork/footwork is the omote. :)

All IMO anyway,
Mark

ian 11-15-2006 11:27 AM

Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi
 
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote:
I'll probably get hammered for this, but ...

variations don't matter.

Well you won't get hammered by me - fiddly things may or may not work but the gross principles of unbalancing and keeping your balance can always be applied.

Ron Tisdale 11-15-2006 12:26 PM

Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi
 
Good point Mark!

Hi Erik,
The version I was thinking of is very similar...open the fingers on the base hand and just hook uke using the space between your thumb and wrist. Since uke doesn't feel a grab or a sandwich, it never occurs to them to pull their hand back.

Best,
Ron

Erick Mead 11-15-2006 12:45 PM

Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi
 
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote:
kuzushi ... tsukuri ... kake. You can't get kake without going through the others. ... If you learn those, the handwork and footwork is a piece of cake ...

But I only like the cake ... :(

Mato-san 11-15-2006 01:22 PM

Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi
 
hmmmm yeah

Mike Hamer 11-15-2006 05:51 PM

Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi
 
Thanks for the insight all.

darin 11-15-2006 09:51 PM

Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi
 
When you do irimi senkai grab your opponent's wrist and trap his elbow between your arm and your ribs then spin into his arm (elbow). If you don't have much momentum then just use a sharp flick with your hips. Your opponent should be off balance. The pain in his elbow will loosen his fist making it easier to twist. Apply the twist as you spin back in the opposite direction before your opponent's other foot can touch the ground (he will be off balance and standing on one foot). When you twist the wrist use a spiral rotation starting with the wrist being pushed or rolled into your opponent. Keep this twist about waist level. Try not to drag the wrist but keep it synchronized with your spin.

The most important thing is to trap the arm and spin into the elbow. A lot of people have criticized this method for being unsafe claiming that your opponent can hit you because you are too close but we have tested it and it works fine. Be careful with your opponent's elbow and the wrist when practicing.

Lan Powers 11-15-2006 10:49 PM

Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi
 
That would be a nice video clip.....hint hint
Lan ;)

xuzen 11-15-2006 11:11 PM

Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi
 
Quote:

Darin Hyde wrote:
When you do irimi senkai grab your opponent's wrist and trap his elbow between your arm and your ribs then spin into his arm (elbow). If you don't have much momentum then just use a sharp flick with your hips. Your opponent should be off balance. The pain in his elbow will loosen his fist making it easier to twist. Apply the twist as you spin back in the opposite direction before your opponent's other foot can touch the ground (he will be off balance and standing on one foot). When you twist the wrist use a spiral rotation starting with the wrist being pushed or rolled into your opponent. Keep this twist about waist level. Try not to drag the wrist but keep it synchronized with your spin.

The most important thing is to trap the arm and spin into the elbow. A lot of people have criticized this method for being unsafe claiming that your opponent can hit you because you are too close but we have tested it and it works fine. Be careful with your opponent's elbow and the wrist when practicing.

That is how we do it in my dojo (when doing jiyu waza), the Yoshinkan kihon waza method is slightly different though.

Quote:

MarkMurray wrote:
kuzushi ... tsukuri ... kake. You can't get kake without going through the others

.
All jujutsu techniques should comform to this three principle to obtain an effortless outsome. If they do not, they will quickly become a contest of strength.

Boon.

darin 11-16-2006 11:12 AM

Re: different ways of applying kotegaeshi
 
Hi Boon,

My teacher was Yoseikan however I think he picked that version up from his time as a member of the Takushoku university Yoshinkan Aikido club. We also do our Shihonage, nikyo, sankyo somewhat like Yoshinkan.

Darin


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