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-   -   K. Tohei vs Aikikai (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11160)

Gwion 10-18-2006 12:28 PM

Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?
 
Quote:

Erick Mead wrote:
While I have no experience with any Tohei lineage (Ki Society/ Shinshin Toitsu), or with Tomiki/Shodokan, I can envisage an approach that begins with a competitive element (so prevalent in modern society) in a limited range of techniques and perhaps finding ways to obviate the competitive drive by that means itself in demonstrating that he who gives up direct confrontation first actually wins. This may be a study in homeopathy where a little touch of the fever may in fact be a cure for the disease that causes it. It runs the risk of a allowing the competitive (force versus force) element a longer period of dominance in practice if not managed very closely.

By no means will I presume to criticize Tohei's approach either, having no experience in it. I can hoewever see an approach from the opposite end of the spectrum as Tomiki. Founding training in development ki musubi and bodily sensitivity as preliminary to study in expression of aiki through technique. This would keep the competitive (force versus force) element almost entirely at bay. It would run the risk of frustrating the competitive urge, rather than sublimating it, or in losing martial connection in a contemplative kind of absorption.

I do not know if these speculations are true to the arc of their curricula or not. I could imagine on my sense of the whole spectrum of aikido teaching that I have experienced that it may be. If so, I find no problem with either of them from that standpoint of being "true" aikido. (As if it were my place to say).

I find my preference in the middle ground of the "traditional" because both tendencies to depart from the center -- the quietist and the activist can be simultaneously quelled. But that is a preference and may not answer to all needs.

The images of aikido are both curved and perpendicular -- circle and cross (juji). Movement inward (iirmi) on perpendicular track (cross) in response to a rotary force (tenkan) defines a spiral. Like a spiral, aikido is always dynamic, asymmetric, constantly changing in orientation, position and extension -- but eternal and inalterable in its fundamental form.

Which is my two cents.

Dude, get over your false sense of modesty. You ARE presuming to judge Tomiki and Ki Society. It's like saying, "I don't mean to criticize, but you suck" Why mention them at all if you have no experience of them?

I'll do you a favor and presume to judge:

Aikikai has basically preserved the external form of Aikido, and to some extent, the spirit of it. However, the passing of Aikido lineage through Osensei's child Kisshomaru and grandson Moriteru, was a bad call in my opinion. With all due respect, neither of these guys' Aikido has ever been pointed to as even close to Osensei, or even Tohei or Tomiki. They are beaurocratic figureheads of the Aikikai organization, not top form Aikidoka.

Tohei sensei on the other hand was granted 10th dan by Osensei and he ended up being the ONLY Osensei approved 10th Dan. (tons of 10th Dans after tohei left, but these seemed more like political promotions)
Why the big split? politics. I can't help but wonder whether Kisshomaru was jealous of Tohei's favoured ranking and position within Aikikai as given to him by Osensei. I have no evidence, but all I know is, the top ranked Aikidoka in the world was 'pushed out' as head instructor, which was fine, because he just made his own Aikido school.

But the result? Now there are some fantastic Aikidoka on both sides of the fence, but there is not a whole lot of reintegration of the two schools, but a lot of mutual critique and criticism based on ignorance and the all pervasive, 'fear of the unknown'. Resulting in the comments by Mr. Eric Mead

:circle: :square: :triangle:

Alfonso 10-18-2006 02:38 PM

Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?
 
Quote:

Wayne Wilson wrote:
Dude, get over your false sense of modesty. You ARE presuming to judge Tomiki and Ki Society. It's like saying, "I don't mean to criticize, but you suck" Why mention them at all if you have no experience of them?

I'll do you a favor and presume to judge:

Aikikai has basically preserved the external form of Aikido, and to some extent, the spirit of it. However, the passing of Aikido lineage through Osensei's child Kisshomaru and grandson Moriteru, was a bad call in my opinion. With all due respect, neither of these guys' Aikido has ever been pointed to as even close to Osensei, or even Tohei or Tomiki. They are beaurocratic figureheads of the Aikikai organization, not top form Aikidoka.

Tohei sensei on the other hand was granted 10th dan by Osensei and he ended up being the ONLY Osensei approved 10th Dan. (tons of 10th Dans after tohei left, but these seemed more like political promotions)
Why the big split? politics. I can't help but wonder whether Kisshomaru was jealous of Tohei's favoured ranking and position within Aikikai as given to him by Osensei. I have no evidence, but all I know is, the top ranked Aikidoka in the world was 'pushed out' as head instructor, which was fine, because he just made his own Aikido school.

But the result? Now there are some fantastic Aikidoka on both sides of the fence, but there is not a whole lot of reintegration of the two schools, but a lot of mutual critique and criticism based on ignorance and the all pervasive, 'fear of the unknown'. Resulting in the comments by Mr. Eric Mead

:circle: :square: :triangle:

I'm curiuos to know if you've personally verified the "weak/poor" Aikido of the different Doshu ? Or are you just repeating something you heard somewhere?

Erick Mead 10-18-2006 04:39 PM

Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?
 
Quote:

Wayne Wilson wrote:
Dude, get over your false sense of modesty.

Oh..., you have NO idea ... :eek:
Quote:

Wayne Wilson wrote:
You ARE presuming to judge Tomiki and Ki Society. It's like saying, "I don't mean to criticize, but you suck" Why mention them at all if you have no experience of them?

I am fairly sure I spoke of "my preference" that "may not answer to all needs" -- not of any judgment of inherent merit or demerit.

Why speak of the moon if I have not visited?

I would do a disservice not to flag the areas where I am speculating from those in which I have sound experience to make a conclusion. That does not mean that interpolation of the gaps in knowledge is not useful, nor that it is necessarily incorrect.

I observe, and I analyze, and I speak; it is my curse, really. (And my stock in trade, for that matter ...)
Quote:

Wayne Wilson wrote:
I'll do you a favor and presume to judge:

Please, I like favors. They're ... shiny.

Quote:

Wayne Wilson wrote:
Aikikai has basically preserved the external form of Aikido, and to some extent, the spirit of it.

[DELETE -- ad hominem argument]

My analysis is as good (or poor) as my observations, which may be good or poor. But I note you have not addressed either of them. "My Shihan is WAY badder than your Shihan" pretty much defines my idea of lame and impolite conversation. My concern was hardly put in such terms nor with any such intent.
Quote:

Wayne Wilson wrote:
But the result? Now there are some fantastic Aikidoka on both sides of the fence ...

I do not doubt that. I did not say or suggest anything to the contrary.
Quote:

Wayne Wilson wrote:
... , but there is not a whole lot of reintegration of the two schools, but a lot of mutual critique and criticism based on ignorance and the all pervasive, 'fear of the unknown'. Resulting in the comments by Mr. Eric Mead

He who fears criticism, generally perceives it, however, whether it it is there or not. It certainly was not on my part. I may fear many things, but the unknown is hardly among them. :p My arc of experience is the product of chance and happenstance, merely, as with all those with whom I have actually had the pleasure of training. It was hardly the result of choice or avoidance.

And "Erick" is spelled with a "ck" -- just so you know, (I'm used to it.) :D

Gwion 10-18-2006 08:53 PM

Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?
 
Dear Alfonso and Eric,

I've seen videos of them doing randori and such, and they seem pretty uncoordinated and shaky (just search the names on youtube)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3OIKnG1L5k

here, take a look at Osensei, and Tohei sensei (and even Shioda sensei) and compare them to any video of Ueshiba's kids. They don't even hold a candle to Osensei or Tohei Sensei. It's not just a 'he's better' argument, it's rational acknowledgement that being a great martial artist's son does not automatically make you great. Osensei himself said something to the effect of 'this budo is not inherited' or the like, this was a powerful statement as at the time most schools of jujitsu and what not were passed down through family generations.

Anyway, I'm basically setting the record straight regarding the implied accusations you made about tohei sensei and the ki society being, whatever it is you claim they were being. It was Osensei's will that Tohei sensei head the Aikikai. Tohei, being a nice guy, decided to leave when more conservative mindsets and political forces amassed to give him guff.

So my point Eric, is: Tohei sensei IS the 'middle ground' of Aikido. What is currently called the Aikikai is not even close to being as great as it could have been, and it is NOT what Osensei envisioned.

aikidjoe 10-18-2006 09:49 PM

Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?
 
"As soon as you concern yourself with the "good" and "bad" of your fellows, you create an opening in your heart for maliciousness to enter. Testing, competing with, and criticizing others weaken and defeat you."

-O'Sensei

This bickering about who is better than who is pointless and destructive.

kironin 10-18-2006 11:07 PM

Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?
 
Quote:

Joseph Montange wrote:
"As soon as you concern yourself with the "good" and "bad" of your fellows, you create an opening in your heart for maliciousness to enter. Testing, competing with, and criticizing others weaken and defeat you."

-O'Sensei

This bickering about who is better than who is pointless and destructive.


Exactly!

My friends include Yoshinkan, Tomiki, AAA, Aikikai, etc. teachers and sniping at each other woukd be such a huge waste of time. We more in common than not.
These are my Aikido brothers.
After all most people I encounter think I mean some form of karate. The most common question is.
"is that like Tae Kwon Do ?"

As for this threads question. huh? For anything that someone loves you can be sure to find someone that hates it. Why tickle even two brain cells together about it. It's inevitable the more common something is to find someone who hates it.

Everyone find a path you enjoy and to hell with what anyone else thinks. Love it with a passion.
:ki:

jason jordan 10-19-2006 05:35 AM

Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?
 
Can't we all just get along!!!!!!!!

Gwion 10-19-2006 09:13 AM

Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?
 
Quote:

Joseph Montange wrote:
"As soon as you concern yourself with the "good" and "bad" of your fellows, you create an opening in your heart for maliciousness to enter. Testing, competing with, and criticizing others weaken and defeat you."

-O'Sensei

This bickering about who is better than who is pointless and destructive.

Exactly.
Thanks for the support Joseph.

ian 10-19-2006 09:20 AM

Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?
 
Quote:

Wayne Wilson wrote:
However, the passing of Aikido lineage through Osensei's child Kisshomaru and grandson Moriteru, was a bad call in my opinion. With all due respect, neither of these guys' Aikido has ever been pointed to as even close to Osensei, or even Tohei or Tomiki. They are beaurocratic figureheads of the Aikikai organization, not top form Aikidoka.

I'm sure they can both kick my arse, but I would tend to agree. However, I'm not sure trying to point to what is 'true aikido' is useful. As Ueshiba said, aikido cannot be understood with words. I think people have to discover it for themselves and their teachers can only point the way. Some teachers are better for some students - but the worst student is the one who is blind and understands only one way of doing things. Yes, there is bullshit in the martial arts. Basically its up to our own judgement on what we feel is effective (as its us that will suffer the consequences!).

Its pointless saying 'my instructor is fantastic' or 'my style is the best', if you yourself are crap. We just have to be the best we can be; whether that means exploring other styles, of even other martial arts. The relationship to Budo and martial development must be the real test.... and we will argue over that for ever! ;)

MikeLogan 10-19-2006 09:46 AM

Re: K. Tohei vs Aikikai
 
Quote:

Wayne Wilson wrote:
Exactly.
Thanks for the support Joseph.

Nice Try, but it is painfully obvious that Joseph's quote was not to the strict benefit of your argument, if any benefit at all.
The quoted material in your initial post was to the point of observation, acceptance, and declaration of personal preference. Your following reply contained nothing but ideas directly disdained and rejected by Joseph Montange's quoted material.

Calm Down, Tomorrow is Friday, you can have a cookie then.

Gwion 10-19-2006 10:17 AM

Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?
 
Quote:

Ian Dodkins wrote:
I'm sure they can both kick my arse, but I would tend to agree. However, I'm not sure trying to point to what is 'true aikido' is useful. As Ueshiba said, aikido cannot be understood with words. I think people have to discover it for themselves and their teachers can only point the way. Some teachers are better for some students - but the worst student is the one who is blind and understands only one way of doing things. Yes, there is bullshit in the martial arts. Basically its up to our own judgement on what we feel is effective (as its us that will suffer the consequences!).

Its pointless saying 'my instructor is fantastic' or 'my style is the best', if you yourself are crap. We just have to be the best we can be; whether that means exploring other styles, of even other martial arts. The relationship to Budo and martial development must be the real test.... and we will argue over that for ever! ;)

I agree, I was just clearing Tohei sensei's good name from Eric the Mead's "Aikikai is the middle ground" misinformation campaign. I personally think all the Aikido styles should get over their hangups and start hanging out and doing more intrastyle seminars and what not. I like 'em all, I just dislike it when Ki Society is misperceived as something it isn't.

Gwion 10-19-2006 10:23 AM

Re: K. Tohei vs Aikikai
 
Quote:

Mike Logan wrote:
Nice Try, but it is painfully obvious that Joseph's quote was not to the strict benefit of your argument, if any benefit at all.
The quoted material in your initial post was to the point of observation, acceptance, and declaration of personal preference. Your following reply contained nothing but ideas directly disdained and rejected by Joseph Montange's quoted material.

Calm Down, Tomorrow is Friday, you can have a cookie then.

1)I'm sorry my post caused you pain.
2) I think Joseph can speak for himself.
3) I am calm, are you?
4) Tomorrow IS friday, the one thing you got right.
5) Thanks for the patronizing "cookie". Could you explain to me how that isn't smug and condescending. Or are you unapologetic?

da2el.ni4na 10-19-2006 10:33 AM

Re: K. Tohei vs Aikikai
 
Something of a tangent:
There are these 3 clips of Tohei sensei on Youtube at the moment, and in one of them he shows striking a bokken corectly and incorrectly. (7:30 in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfpTU6ZiaK4)
There is also an Aikikai video (not on Youtube) featuring Kisshomaru doshu, with Shibata, Seki, Moriteru, Endo, Suganuma, and Chiba senseis as ukes. In one part Chiba sensei is thrusting at Kisshomaru with jo, and Kisshomaru doshu strikes the jo with bokken in such a way that Chiba sensei drops to his knees.
I just thought is was interesting you could see them do something so similar in light of this thread.

Gwion 10-19-2006 10:37 AM

Re: K. Tohei vs Aikikai
 
Quote:

Daniel Nishina wrote:
Something of a tangent:
There are these 3 clips of Tohei sensei on Youtube at the moment, and in one of them he shows striking a bokken corectly and incorrectly. (7:30 in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfpTU6ZiaK4)
There is also an Aikikai video (not on Youtube) featuring Kisshomaru doshu, with Shibata, Seki, Moriteru, Endo, Suganuma, and Chiba senseis as ukes. In one part Chiba sensei is thrusting at Kisshomaru with jo, and Kisshomaru doshu strikes the jo with bokken in such a way that Chiba sensei drops to his knees.
I just thought is was interesting you could see them do something so similar in light of this thread.

that's awesome, I never found those vids before! Thanks Daniel.

Guilty Spark 10-19-2006 11:44 AM

Re: K. Tohei vs Aikikai
 
So where does Gozo Shioda Sensei fit in on the pecking order?

MikeLogan 10-19-2006 01:03 PM

Re: K. Tohei vs Aikikai
 
Quote:

1)I'm sorry my post caused you pain.
No, you're not.
Quote:

2) I think Joseph can speak for himself.
No, you don't. [spoiler]
Quote:

Wayne wrote:
Exactly. Thanks for the support Joseph.

He did not address you, he simply stated, and you claimed it to be in support of your reasoning. You put your words in his mouth.[/spoiler]
Quote:

3) I am calm, are you?
Quite, but not quiet.
Quote:

4) Tomorrow IS friday, the one thing you got right.
Actually come tomorrow, that will be the only thing that would be incorrect, so one might reason that it being incorrect in the future, we will act as though it were incorrect in the present.
Quote:

5) Thanks for the patronizing "cookie". Could you explain to me how that isn't smug and condescending. Or are you unapologetic?
Quite unapologetic, here, have another cookie. Or shall I be downright rude, and offer you a kookie? Nah, you've got plenty of them to train with...

I think I'm having a bit of that cathartic aggression Erick might have been referring too. Look closer and maybe you'll gain some sort of benefit from your tantrums.

Gwion 10-19-2006 01:24 PM

Re: K. Tohei vs Aikikai
 
Quote:

Grant Wagar wrote:
So where does Gozo Shioda Sensei fit in on the pecking order?

read what I wrote, I put him in there

Gwion 10-19-2006 01:25 PM

Re: K. Tohei vs Aikikai
 
Quote:

Mike Logan wrote:
No, you're not. No, you don't. [spoiler] He did not address you, he simply stated, and you claimed it to be in support of your reasoning. You put your words in his mouth.[/spoiler] Quite, but not quiet. Actually come tomorrow, that will be the only thing that would be incorrect, so one might reason that it being incorrect in the future, we will act as though it were incorrect in the present.
Quite unapologetic, here, have another cookie. Or shall I be downright rude, and offer you a kookie? Nah, you've got plenty of them to train with...

I think I'm having a bit of that cathartic aggression Erick might have been referring too. Look closer and maybe you'll gain some sort of benefit from your tantrums.

U R A Douche

odudog 10-19-2006 01:27 PM

Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?
 
Quote:

Wayne Wilson wrote:
...Aikikai has basically preserved the external form of Aikido, and to some extent, the spirit of it. However, the passing of Aikido lineage through Osensei's child Kisshomaru and grandson Moriteru, was a bad call in my opinion. With all due respect, neither of these guys' Aikido has ever been pointed to as even close to Osensei, or even Tohei or Tomiki. They are beaurocratic figureheads of the Aikikai organization, not top form Aikidoka.

Tohei sensei on the other hand was granted 10th dan by Osensei and he ended up being the ONLY Osensei approved 10th Dan. (tons of 10th Dans after tohei left, but these seemed more like political promotions)
Why the big split? politics. I can't help but wonder whether Kisshomaru was jealous of Tohei's favoured ranking and position within Aikikai as given to him by Osensei. I have no evidence, but all I know is, the top ranked Aikidoka in the world was 'pushed out' as head instructor, which was fine, because he just made his own Aikido school....

Kisshomaru was pointed in charge of the Aikikai when he was in High School if my memory serves me correctly so he was in charge for a very long time. He was put in this position by O'Sensei. Aikido follows the iemoto system of transmission so Tohei would never have been in charge, this also explains why there is no rank for Kisshomaru or Moriteru and the same for Waka-Sensei. Tohei Sensei was in charge of the technical instruction only.

The things that Tohei Sensei wanted to introduce to Aikido was not learned from O'Sensei but from the Tempukai, hence the dissatisfaction of this idea from Kisshomaru and the other high ranking Sensei.

akiy 10-19-2006 01:31 PM

Re: K. Tohei vs Aikikai
 
Hi folks,

Please stop the personal attacks. They are not welcome here on AikiWeb.

Thank you,

-- Jun

MikeLogan 10-19-2006 01:46 PM

Re: K. Tohei vs Aikikai
 
Wow, that is unmitigated, irrevocable logic, and in only 4 syllables. I got nothing, Thread Over, you win.

Larry Cuvin 10-19-2006 01:47 PM

Re: K. Tohei vs Aikikai
 
Not very Aiki.

Gwion 10-19-2006 02:14 PM

Re: K. Tohei vs Aikikai
 
Quote:

Mike Logan wrote:
Wow, that is unmitigated, irrevocable logic, and in only 4 syllables. I got nothing, Thread Over, you win.

Thanks Mike. Glad you can see things my way.

I think if you're a little more open and kind to new posters, and try not to be so snide and condescending with your posts, you'll find yourself in a lot more friendly dialogue and a lot less of what just happened.

take it to heart.

--WW

Erick Mead 10-19-2006 02:36 PM

Re: Why do some people hate Aikido?
 
Quote:

Wayne Wilson wrote:
I agree, I was just clearing Tohei sensei's good name from Eric the Mead's ...

For the record -- his name is more than secure from the likes of me -- couldn't touch him with several dozen ten-foot poles ... :)

Tomas Grana 10-19-2006 02:50 PM

Re: K. Tohei vs Aikikai
 
I second Jun's post. This is one of the most un-aiki threads I've ever read on Aikiweb. Right from the title, too. There should be no "vs" in Aikido, especially between aikidoka/aikidoists. As one of my favourite dojo rules goes: "leave your shoes and your egos off the mat".


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