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taro 08-21-2001 04:10 PM

kihon dosa
 
Hello again. I'm the guy looking for a new aikido home. I've been looking into Yoshinkan for those who haven't read my other threads. Can anyone tell me about kihon dosa? All I know is that they are forms, similar to katas which serve to condition the body's reflexes to martial situations. Let me know if my understanding is incorrect or incomplete. I think I like this principle of training, however, I'm wondering if there are any drawbacks to this method. Obviously the aikikai school sees it this way since they don't use this method of training. I understand Tomiki aikido also uses katas for similar reasons. I'm wondering how branches of aikido(aikikai) which do not make use of these forms addresses this training problem?

guest1234 08-21-2001 04:31 PM

Hi Taro,

Just because one school doesn't stress the use of a particular teaching technique, doesn't mean there is a 'drawback' to it, or that the school perceives there to be a drawback. Although questions along those lines often spark a very unfriendly exchange of opinions.:(

Rather than deliberating about which style might suit you, the only real way to tell is go and try it. Even if you decide (in a vacuum) that one particular style is more what you want, you might find that the particular dojo---sensei, students, etc---is not what you are after. :rolleyes:

Maybe a way to do some advance work might be to call/write/email the dojos in your new area to make a few 'friends' before you arrive, and get a feel for why they like their dojo.:)

Erik 08-21-2001 05:24 PM

Re: kihon dosa
 
I don't think it's that different. A search of Google turned up some familiar names under kihon dosa. I've certainly done some of them and I'm not in the Yoshinkai. Maybe the intent is different, I dunno. Anyways, I don't believe that the Yoshinkai are really that different in their Aikido from the Aikikai. The clips below all show stuff that I've done, with less elegance in my case, in Aikikai dojos.

http://www.yoshinkai.org/doshinkan/a...ry/default.htm

http://www.aikido-yoshinkai.org/Multimedia.htm

Paja 08-22-2001 01:20 AM

Kihon dosa literally means basic movement. It is a set of movements (3 movements in both ichi (irimi) and ni (ura)). It teaches you how to move correctly in your techniques. Theese movements are very short (seconds) unlike the karate katas for example. But they are included in every (Yoshinkan) aikido techniques.

First movement is Tai no Henko. It is about changing direction of movement using hips power. Second movement is Hiriki no Yosei. It is called elbow power. Again movement from the hips and the use of elbows. And the last movement Shumatsu Dosa combined theese two previous and it is based on Shiho nage.

Kihon dosa teaches you good posture, good angles of movement, hand position, hips work, rhytm and so on. And because theese movements are presented in techniques, you can improve all your techniques improving your Kihon Dosa.

Another advantage is, after you know Kihon dosa, you will remember the techniques better being a beginner (on seminars for example), because you can translate sensei's movements to kihon dosa (of course except the detail work of hand etc.)

I believe that in Gozo Shioda's books (Dynamic Aikido, Total Aikido) you will find a lot of information about Kihon Dosa

BTW I found another site with good yoshinkan mpegs
http://www.aikido.ca/Multimedia.htm
Check it out.

Regards
Paja

taro 08-22-2001 10:50 AM

Colleen:
I understand your concern, however, I'm as much of a beginner as you can get. My intention is not to 'spark' any debate. Just to familiarize myself with all of my options. I realize you may be right, but if anyone feels compelled to begin a heated debate, well, that's something for them to reconsider now isn't it?
I understand your point about choosing a dojo and sensei over the style of art. And that WILL be part of my consideration when it comes time to choose. However, I seem to have many choices, of which I'm sure most, if not all, will be a suitable environment to train. Therefore, I plan to limit my selection to dojos and sensei's who are in-line with my preferences. Right now, I'm in the process of determining those preferences.

Erik:
Thanks for your input, I'll check out the sites.

Paja:
I'll check out that site. Thanks. I believe you lead me to that other one as well. It was very helpful, thank you. I'm still a little unclear about what kihon-dosa is. I was under the impression that they were a series of aikido waza strung together. But from your last post, I'm getting the impression that they are in fact not waza at all, only body movements that resemble waza.
By the way, would you mind if I asked what branch of aikido you've practiced and are practicing?

Thank you all.

L. Camejo 08-22-2001 12:27 PM

Hi Taro,

Narrowing your dojo search I see :).

All I can add to the splendid info you already have, is that Kihon Dosa will help you as a beginner to form the FOUNDATION of most of your techniques. They are exercises that, as said before, will help you to maintain your centre, posture etc. while doing certain techniques later on.

Upon investigation, you may realise that one of the Kihon Dosa forms are actually the beginnings of the technique called Shi ho nage. This is how Kihon Dosa works it allows a beginner to practice movements that can be later translated into actual techniques.

I am by no means an authority on Yoshinkan style Aikido, but I've done a bit of it to develop self defence variations to the Shodokan style that I do. I hope this is of help.

L.C.:ai::ki:

deepsoup 08-22-2001 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by taro
I'm still a little unclear about what kihon-dosa is. I was under the impression that they were a series of aikido waza strung together. But from your last post, I'm getting the impression that they are in fact not waza at all, only body movements that resemble waza.

Thats right, kihon dosa are short excercises designed to give us the 'building-blocks' to construct techniques with. I haven't seen the Yoshinkan kihon dosa, but we also use kihon dosa (which are different excercises to the Yoshinkan ones)in Shodokan style, a whole sequence of excercises to build up fundamental skills and concepts, which most shodokan dojos practice at the beginning of each session.

I think you were confusing kihon dosa with kata. All styles of aikido seem to have kata with weapons, but as far as I know neither Aikikai nor Yoshinkan have kata which are sequences of empty-handed waza.

That kind of kata is pretty much only practiced in the styles of aikido inspired by Prof. Tomiki, (Shodokan is the 'mainstream' Tomiki-style, but there are others), and is quite similar in style to judo kata.

Sean
x

taro 08-22-2001 03:25 PM

Thanks Larry and Sean.
I haven't come across any Shodokan dojos in Toronto on the net, but I think I'll check one out if I find one when I get there. I think the only reason I haven't considered Tomiki is because of the competition factor. Never really interested me that much.

Larry, you mentioned something about studying a bit of Yoshinkan to develop self defence variations to the Shodokan style that you do. Could you elaborate on that a bit? I'd like to understand what is it specifically about Yoshinkan which makes people say it is a bit more suited for self-defense than other aikido styles. Thanks again.

L. Camejo 08-23-2001 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by taro
Larry, you mentioned something about studying a bit of Yoshinkan to develop self defence variations to the Shodokan style that you do. Could you elaborate on that a bit? I'd like to understand what is it specifically about Yoshinkan which makes people say it is a bit more suited for self-defense than other aikido styles. Thanks again.
Hmm, you are requesting one of the Colonel's secret recipes Taro :)

Let's just say that in Gozo Shioda's book, Dynamic Aikido, I realised that there were similarities between his application of atemi waza in certain techniques that, when applied Shodokan style would be devastatingly effective in self defence situations.

Like Shodokan, Yoshinkan Aikido tends to be straight to the point, no unnecessary turning and spinning of the uke into endless circles before application of technique as seen in some other styles of aikido (which shall remain nameless ;) ).

We just take away your balance and apply a technique that works. Being more sport-oriented however, Shodokan doesn't focus on Atemi to the extent that Yoshinkan does. This is not to say that Shodokan isn't highly effective, but I believe that in self defence scenarios one must strike at some point (until one's aiki sense is so developed that it is no longer necessary), which is Yoshinkan's focus in most cases (at least from my experience).

Also, if you check out Peter's site at
http://www.geocities.com/rehseca/Aikido you will see that Yoshinkan is taught to the Tokyo Police, while Shodokan is taught ot the Osaka Police force. I don't think this decision was made because of their character building traits alone :)

Hope this helps.
L.C.:ai::ki:

taro 08-23-2001 04:06 PM

Invaluable stuff. Many thanks again Larry. Excellent article at that site you posted too. This is the stuff I've been looking for. So, in a nutshell, Yoshinkan would be a better choice if I want to focus on a self-defense aspect, and Shodokan if I want to focus more on a fitness aspect. Sound about right? Variations from dojo to dojo and sensei to sensei taken into account of course.

L. Camejo 08-23-2001 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by taro
Invaluable stuff. Many thanks again Larry. Excellent article at that site you posted too. This is the stuff I've been looking for. So, in a nutshell, Yoshinkan would be a better choice if I want to focus on a self-defense aspect, and Shodokan if I want to focus more on a fitness aspect. Sound about right? Variations from dojo to dojo and sensei to sensei taken into account of course.
In a nutshell, you've got it!:D

Keep us posted on how it goes. Glad I can help.

L.C.:ai::ki:

Paja 08-24-2001 02:00 AM

Hi Taro,

Quote:

Originally posted by taro
By the way, would you mind if I asked what branch of aikido you've practiced and are practicing?

I'm practising Shi Kon Aikido, style based on Yoshinkan Aikido.

Regards,
Paja

taro 08-24-2001 10:42 AM

Thanks guys. In fact, thanks to all of you. Everyone has been very helpful. I'll be without a computer pretty soon for a little while. Talk to you guys when I get settled in. I'll let you know how things turned out.
Domo arigato gozaimash'ta.


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