AikiWeb Aikido Forums

AikiWeb Aikido Forums (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/index.php)
-   Training (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=15)
-   -   What is "Aikido"? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11034)

Mike Sigman 09-24-2006 07:40 PM

Re: Men and Women Training Together
 
Quote:

David Skaggs wrote:
Are these men practicing Aikido?

What is Aikido? Define it. If you can't, you'll see why I was vague.

Mike

dps 09-24-2006 08:39 PM

Re: Men and Women Training Together
 
Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:
What is Aikido? Define it. Mike

From "The Aikido FAQ"

"Whenever I move, that's Aikido."
O Sensei, Morihei Ueshiba

Aikido is a Japanese martial art developed by Morihei Ueshiba (often referred to by his title 'O Sensei' or 'Great Teacher'). On a purely physical level it is an art involving some throws and joint locks that are derived from Jujitsu and some throws and other techniques derived from Kenjutsu. Aikido focuses not on punching or kicking opponents, but rather on using their own energy to gain control of them or to throw them away from you. It is not a static art, but places great emphasis on motion and the dynamics of movement.

Upon closer examination, practitioners will find from Aikido what they are looking for, whether it is applicable self-defense technique, spiritual enlightenment, physical health or peace of mind. O Sensei emphasized the moral and spiritual aspects of this art, placing great weight on the development of harmony and peace. "The Way of Harmony of the Spirit" is one way that "Aikido" may be translated into English. This is still true of Aikido today, although different styles emphasize the more spiritual aspects to greater or lesser degrees. Although the idea of a martial discipline striving for peace and harmony may seem paradoxical, it is the most basic tenet of the art.


Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:
If you can't, you'll see why I was vague.Mike

I did, why were you vague?


Mike Sigman wrote:
Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:
I know a lot of men that simply want to do a martial art for the martial art and "harmony" has got little to do with it,Mike

Are these men practicing Aikido?
Is there another martial art that emphisises harmony?

Mike Sigman 09-24-2006 09:34 PM

Re: Men and Women Training Together
 
Quote:

David Skaggs wrote:
From "The Aikido FAQ"

I see your grasp of the subject, David. Why go to summer camp and learn "kokyu" from Ushiro Sensei when you can simply look it up on a FAQ, I wonder? ;)

Mike Sigman

eyrie 09-24-2006 09:41 PM

Re: Men and Women Training Together
 
What about hapkido? Same Chinese characters....

hapkidoike 09-24-2006 09:52 PM

Re: Men and Women Training Together
 
Quote:

David Skaggs wrote:
From "The Aikido FAQ"

"Whenever I move, that's Aikido."
O Sensei, Morihei Ueshiba

Aikido is a Japanese martial art developed by Morihei Ueshiba (often referred to by his title 'O Sensei' or 'Great Teacher'). On a purely physical level it is an art involving some throws and joint locks that are derived from Jujitsu and some throws and other techniques derived from Kenjutsu. Aikido focuses not on punching or kicking opponents, but rather on using their own energy to gain control of them or to throw them away from you. It is not a static art, but places great emphasis on motion and the dynamics of movement.

Upon closer examination, practitioners will find from Aikido what they are looking for, whether it is applicable self-defense technique, spiritual enlightenment, physical health or peace of mind. O Sensei emphasized the moral and spiritual aspects of this art, placing great weight on the development of harmony and peace. "The Way of Harmony of the Spirit" is one way that "Aikido" may be translated into English. This is still true of Aikido today, although different styles emphasize the more spiritual aspects to greater or lesser degrees. Although the idea of a martial discipline striving for peace and harmony may seem paradoxical, it is the most basic tenet of the art.



I did, why were you vague?


Mike Sigman wrote:

Are these men practicing Aikido?
Is there another martial art that emphasizes harmony?

What one usually means when asking for a definition is a set of necessary and sufficient conditions. It may be necessary that the art be Japanese and have been founded by one Morihei Ueshiba. It may be necessary that such an art have been derived from Kenjutsu and jujitsu, but I do not think that it is sufficient or necessary to say that it emphasis es harmony. This is epically due to the fact that so many disagree about what this truly means. Maybe some or most practitioners of the art do, but given that some do not, it cannot be a sufficient condition. And what are the necessary and sufficient conditions for a word like harmony? The problem here is that agreement on what aikido is is dependent on what our idea of what harmony is. Remember that words are merely conventions, they do not say anything about the nature of a thing.
And about other martial arts emphasizing harmony, again that is going to depend on how we define harmony. If someone is trying to shoot me or somebody else, I would say that it would be harmonious (given that this person is threatening the lives of myself or others) for me to draw my .357 on his dome and spatter cherry pie against the wall, due to the fact that he has disrupted the social order and has to be corrected. Others would not.
Are there men who are practicing aikido who are not concerned with others (by others I mean their instructors and fellow students) idea about the philosophical implications of aikido and how that squares with "harmony"? Surely there are. I don't really care about the philosophical ideas behind the art. I got a degree in philosophy, and I for one am tired of normative ethics. If we do have to make it square with some idea of harmony, I say we put the harm back into harmony. :D

dps 09-24-2006 09:58 PM

Re: Men and Women Training Together
 
Quote:

Isaac Bettis wrote:
If someone is trying to shoot me or somebody else, I would say that it would be harmonious (given that this person is threatening the lives of myself or others) for me to draw my .357 on his dome and spatter cherry pie against the wall, due to the fact that he has disrupted the social order and has to be corrected.

As good a definition for harmony as any other.

Gernot Hassenpflug 09-24-2006 09:59 PM

Re: Men and Women Training Together
 
"Ai-ki-dou" is pronounced "gou-ki-dou" in Chinese, and probably in Korean, helping to distinguish it from "hapkido" in the latter. The pronounciation "gou" is the chinese reading, while "ai" is the japanese. Of course, "gou" appears a lot in japanese compounds too.

hapkidoike 09-24-2006 10:29 PM

Re: Men and Women Training Together
 
Quote:

David Skaggs wrote:
As good a definition for harmony as any other.

Dude, give me a break, this may be an example of harmonious action or something like it but as a defintion it is severly lacking. I really dont think it is possible to give an account of necessary and suffcient condions for harmony. But Skaggs, give er your best shot. The other reason (aside from the idea of talking about normative ethics) I get so turned off by talking about this idea about harmony is for this exact reason. It is elusive, and like my man Wittgenstein said "What can be said at all can be said clearly; and whereof one cannot speak thereof one must be silent" Tractatus: Logico Philosophicus.

dps 09-24-2006 10:36 PM

Re: Men and Women Training Together
 
Quote:

Isaac Bettis wrote:
but I do not think that it is sufficient or necessary to say that it emphasis es harmony.

Then what do you think the Ai in Aikido means?

http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/aikido

" The word "aikido" is made up of three Japanese characters: AI - harmony,..."

hapkidoike 09-24-2006 11:25 PM

Re: Men and Women Training Together
 
Quote:

David Skaggs wrote:
Then what do you think the Ai in Aikido means?

http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/aikido

" The word "aikido" is made up of three Japanese characters: AI - harmony,..."

Skaggs:
Sorry about the jacked up spelling job.
Maybe it is the case that ai translates to harmony, either directly or indirectly, I dont know for I don't speak Japanese. What I do know is that noone in the aikido world has ever given me a clear definition of the word harmony, insofar as it relates to some philosophical underpinnings that are supposed to exist within the 'aikido framework'. Who's idea of harmony do we use? We cant use Usheiba's he is dead, therefore we cannot interrogate him about it. Given that there are going to be as many different ideas of what harmony is "supposed" to mean as there are aikidoka I do not think this is an appropriate way to try to "define" aikido as such.
Good Day
Bettis

dps 09-24-2006 11:45 PM

Re: Men and Women Training Together
 
Not knowing something is often more comfortable than knowing it.
Have a nice day. :)

Alfonso 09-25-2006 02:02 PM

Re: What is "Aikido"?
 
I think that this idea that Aikido is defined by the kanji that is used to spell it is a bit weird.

I mean if someone asks you what is boxing, would you go about boxes and gramatical rules and so on?

gdandscompserv 09-25-2006 02:23 PM

Re: What is "Aikido"?
 
Aikido is this martial art that I learned from Iwao Yamaguchi Sensei. I continue to practice it and refine it to the best of my ability. I am unable to express it in words. I find myself applying it's principles in everyday life however. For example, this morning, I was a bit slow in arising upon hearing the alarm. I later thought about this and determined that if I approached waking up with the same true intent that I tell my students to attack me with, it would be a more pleasant experience. :D

Mike Sigman 09-25-2006 03:50 PM

Re: Men and Women Training Together
 
Quote:

Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:
"Ai-ki-dou" is pronounced "gou-ki-dou" in Chinese, and probably in Korean, helping to distinguish it from "hapkido" in the latter. The pronounciation "gou" is the chinese reading, while "ai" is the japanese. Of course, "gou" appears a lot in japanese compounds too.

Hmmmmmm, Gernot. I thought it was Ho-qi-dao, more or less, in Chinese... *if* they had a term like that. ;)

Mike

Tim Fong 09-25-2006 04:23 PM

Re: What is "Aikido"?
 
In Mandarin it comes out as "He Qi Dao". In discussions with Korean nationals (in Mandarin...long story) we would always differentiate btw "Hanguo de He Qi Dao" and "Riben de He Qi Dao" , i.e "korean aikido" and "japanese aikido."

As to "what is" "I'd say, it's manipulating the feeling of pressure (i.e. ki) in your body, so that it pervades every joint. Then, on contact with your opponent, you "harmonize" by keeping your pressure, which means that as you make a structure to structure connection (say a wrist grab) your structure displaces that of your opponents, assuming you have a stronger structure than they do, or you find the weakest link in their structure and break them down in that direction.

Now can I do this yet? No. Only in a limited direction. But check back with me in a few years and hopefully the answer will be yes.

Gernot Hassenpflug 09-25-2006 07:38 PM

Re: Men and Women Training Together
 
Quote:

Mike Sigman wrote:
Hmmmmmm, Gernot. I thought it was Ho-qi-dao, more or less, in Chinese... *if* they had a term like that. ;)
Mike

You're probably right Mike! I only know from Chinese people here in Japan that don't recognize "aikido" but they know that "gou" is the Japanese version of their "Ho" so they go "ah, goukidou, yes, yes, yes...." :D

Mike Sigman 09-25-2006 07:47 PM

Re: Men and Women Training Together
 
Quote:

Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:
You're probably right Mike! I only know from Chinese people here in Japan that don't recognize "aikido" but they know that "gou" is the Japanese version of their "Ho" so they go "ah, goukidou, yes, yes, yes...." :D

Tim's right on the spelling as "He" in Pinyin... I deliberately fudged it to an "o" because the "e" has an almost "o" sound (to us westerners). He's right; I'm wrong.

Mike

Gernot Hassenpflug 09-25-2006 09:33 PM

Re: What is "Aikido"?
 
Thanks Tim for that explanation of the pronounciation.

Tim Fong 09-25-2006 09:39 PM

Re: What is "Aikido"?
 
No prob =)

Gwion 09-26-2006 01:33 AM

Re: What is "Aikido"?
 
Aikido is the Way of Harmony
the Art of Peace

the way of one who loves and respects all creation.


pretty simple to define if you ask me.

why make it complicated?

hapkidoike 09-26-2006 08:17 PM

Re: What is "Aikido"?
 
Quote:

Wayne Wilson wrote:
Aikido is the Way of Harmony
the Art of Peace

the way of one who loves and respects all creation.


pretty simple to define if you ask me.

why make it complicated?

Are you saying that if my instructor wakes up tomorrow and decides he does not have "respect for all creation" then what he is doing is not aikido, and that someone who has never seen the inside of a dojo or ever heard the word aikido is doing it if (and only if) they "love and respect all creation"? Can you not see why this is deficient?

Joe Bowen 09-27-2006 01:54 AM

Re: Men and Women Training Together
 
Quote:

Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:
"Ai-ki-dou" is pronounced "gou-ki-dou" in Chinese, and probably in Korean, helping to distinguish it from "hapkido" in the latter. The pronounciation "gou" is the chinese reading, while "ai" is the japanese. Of course, "gou" appears a lot in japanese compounds too.

The korean pronounciation of :ai: :ki: :do: is hap ki do. The hanja is the same for both which has caused some problems for the Korea Aikido Federation when spelling out its name in the Hanja. It's identical to the Korea Hapkido Federation!

By the way, if you looked up this character :ai: in a chinese dictionary you'd find that it does not translate as harmony.... :freaky:
The chinese definition if I remember correctly as I did this a long time ago, is more akin to integration rather than harmonization. And basically, the character is generally not used by the chinese to indicate harmony as I've been told by a few native Chinese speakers, "we wouldn't even think of using that character for "harmony", we'd use this other one", but I can't remember which one they said.
I actually like the term integration, but the idea of harmony I believe suites the philosophy and thinking about the era Aikido was introduced to the west (60's & 70's) it was probably not a literal translation effort... ;)

eyrie 09-27-2006 06:10 AM

Re: What is "Aikido"?
 
和 = harmony
合 = combine, unite, join; gather

Robert Rumpf 09-27-2006 06:32 AM

Re: What is "Aikido"?
 
Here's one that I've come up with that I've been thinking about...
Aikido is what happens when one of us takes ukemi.

Rob

Gernot Hassenpflug 09-27-2006 07:49 AM

Re: What is "Aikido"?
 
Quote:

Ignatius Teo wrote:
和 = harmony
合 = combine, unite, join; gather

Hi I.T.,
Aikido is wagou, exactly those two characters, according to Abe sensei. He then goes on to explain this in terms much like O'Sensei did, in a calligraphic phrase about using one's total power and putting that to use in accordance with the sum of external forces.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:45 PM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.