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-   -   Losing grip during katate dori (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10956)

Eric Cook 09-13-2006 11:36 AM

Losing grip during katate dori
 
As you read this, bear in mind that I only have two training sessions under my belt, so if this is something I need to learn with time, I'll understand.

When I am uke during katate dori, I try to maintain a firm, sturdy grip on nage's wrist while keeping my elbows and shoulders relaxed, only letting go in cooperation with the technique (when it's time to ukemi). A couple students I have practiced with have complimented me on this. However, a common problem I experience when I am nage is that uke's grip sometimes slips just before the technique is actually complete (when they still could regain their center). They still fall in cooperation.

I usually attribute this to sweaty hands on sweaty wrists, but if that was the case, I would be losing my grip as well. As an uke should I keep a slightly looser grip, or as a nage should I ask my uke to tighten their grip on my wrist?

James Davis 09-13-2006 11:41 AM

Re: Losing grip during katate dori
 
As an uke, grip like hell (just don't hurt anybody).

As a nage, move a hair slower. Allow the uke to keep half a grip on your wrist. Unless he's a quitter, he'll try his best to hold on...

...while you lead him. ;)

Have fun! :)

Pauliina Lievonen 09-13-2006 12:00 PM

Re: Losing grip during katate dori
 
Yeah move a tad slower. If uke is able to let go, your wrist is going in some way in a wrong direction, away from uke's grip. Try to keep a slight feeling of pressure into uke's palm with your wrist at all times, that way uke is not so likely to think about letting go.

The above might not make any sense to you just yet, so feel free to ignore.. but go a bit slower, that is always a good idea in practice.

kvaak
Pauliina

Larry John 09-13-2006 12:19 PM

Re: Losing grip during katate dori
 
Another possibility is that the ukes don't understand that they need to continue the attack.

If uke doesn't follow-up the initial grab by keeping his palm in contact with your arm (so he can stay in position to pop you with the other hand or a kick--uke grabs either to fix you in place or to keep you from drawing a weapon with the grabbed hand), he cannot be lead into a technique that's appropriate to katate dore.

This changes the martial situation and may lead you to do a technique from a different series--or no technique at all, if he's no longer in position to be a threat.

akiy 09-13-2006 12:37 PM

Re: Losing grip during katate dori
 
Personally, I think that there is oftentimes too much emphasis on placing the "blame" on uke to keep the connection. I've had my fingers wrenched a few too many times while I've been uke when my partner moves in such a way that would, in a "natural" situation, break the grip. When such a situation arises these days, I'll let the grip break but will usually try to keep connection through tegatana or some other part of my body.

Tangentially, just as I don't want to have a "death grip" when I'm nage, I sure don't want to have such as uke.

Just my thoughts.

-- Jun

odudog 09-14-2006 01:49 PM

Re: Losing grip during katate dori
 
You should tell uke to hold on tighter. It's amazing the amount of people that get to really practice the techniques because uke is doing a good job of holding on, however, when the roles are switched, the other person can't really practice for the original nage doesn't do a good job of holding on. We have several people like this in my dojo. They don't hold on well, move well, and are stiff when doing ukemi. I have to hold up on my defences {iriminage, nikkyo, etc..} so as not too hurt them too bad for they are so stiff and move like molasses.

Jeff Sodeman 09-14-2006 02:38 PM

Re: Losing grip during katate dori
 
I'm going to jump in with the move slower/smoother camp.

Mark Gibbons 09-14-2006 03:14 PM

Re: Losing grip during katate dori
 
Quote:

Mike Braxton wrote:
You should tell uke to hold on tighter. ....

.

:)

You might want to wait a while. 2 classes really isn't enough experience to start telling people what to do.

I expect you'll experience all sorts of grips. You'll be able to do something with most of them.


Good Luck,
Mark

Upyu 09-14-2006 05:23 PM

Re: Losing grip during katate dori
 
It's not up to Uke...if Nage does his job, and has a soft malleable connection, then the grip shouldn't break.
Actually he shouldn't be able to release the grip even if he wants to ;) (from my experience anyways)
Food for thought...

Mark Uttech 09-14-2006 09:30 PM

Re: Losing grip during katate dori
 
The only solution or idea I can give you is to devote yourself to the study of katate-tori, both sides, uke and nage; omote and ura. Katate-tori is actually a very deep lesson when you reflect on it. Even if a mosquito lands on your wrist, it can still bite it.
In gassho,
Mark

Ed Shockley 09-15-2006 04:12 AM

Re: Losing grip during katate dori
 
Later in your study you will begin moving before uke is able to grab. In a fight, for example, you wouldn't allow someone to clamp down on you unless you messed up. Katate dori is an exercise to explore exactly what your question suggests, "How do I control the quality of contact." Rather than asking uke to change, experience the technique with multiple partners. If they all let go then something needs to be altered. If some let go then something needs to be altered. Enjoy.

Janet Rosen 09-15-2006 12:25 PM

Re: Losing grip during katate dori
 
I don't think of it as "hang on tighter" which to me implies tension which impedes connection. I try to emphasise -- as a couple others have mentioned--less emphasis on my grip/fingers and more on my palm against the wrist or forearm of partner.

Walter Martindale 09-15-2006 01:54 PM

Re: Losing grip during katate dori
 
As others have said, it's a bit early to start telling people what to do - it may pay to ask your sensei/sempai (whomever is leading your learning adventure) for advice - i.e., am I moving in such a way that this uke can't hold on - how can I fix this?
My instruction (i.e., the instruction I've had) is "hold on" but also from others "move so that uke can (and needs to) keep a grip. Or - if Uke's trying to hold on but cannot, you may need to move differently. I've practiced with people who are accustomed to loose, flexible uke who don't weigh much, and they jump on my neck (figuratively) when I just CAN'T hold on because of the little bit of arthritis, ancient injuries from judo, a bit of weight (97 kg/210 or so lb) and old age.. My understanding it that if uke CAN'T hold on, nage moved too much for uke... if uke WON'T hold on, then he/she needs instruction.
Walter

justin 09-15-2006 01:56 PM

Re: Losing grip during katate dori
 
Quote:

Ed Shockley wrote:
Later in your study you will begin moving before uke is able to grab. In a fight, for example, you wouldn't allow someone to clamp down on you unless you messed up. Katate dori is an exercise to explore exactly what your question suggests, "How do I control the quality of contact." Rather than asking uke to change, experience the technique with multiple partners. If they all let go then something needs to be altered. If some let go then something needs to be altered. Enjoy.


i am working on this at the moment kind of slip the grip kind of feeling without braking contact.

Abasan 09-16-2006 05:46 AM

Re: Losing grip during katate dori
 
Just wanted to add something here. Gripping a nage should be done as an attack. But for the beginning, just hold the intention and don't follow up with an attack. Now, nage will respond by blending with the attack. If he blends wrongly, your grip would slip because that is your natural reaction. That is not uke's fault but nage's fault.

However, in the beginning, nage is trying to learn to maintain connection/musubi with uke. So he will make mistakes. Thus, uke should try as much as possible to hold on. Even having done that, your grips still slips, then nage needs more practice. Thats my take.

Some however would say, that releasing a grip on nage is tantamount to allowing nage to attack uke with his freed hand. Yes thats true, vice versa too. So forget about that. Your objective as nage would be to achieve total control of uke by blending with his attack (grip in this instance) fully in that he is not able to consciously escape your movement. Any conscious attempt to escape at any point in time will result in nage being able to take uke down.

Hope that helps.

George S. Ledyard 09-16-2006 05:40 PM

Re: Losing grip during katate dori
 
Quote:

Jun Akiyama wrote:
Personally, I think that there is oftentimes too much emphasis on placing the "blame" on uke to keep the connection. I've had my fingers wrenched a few too many times while I've been uke when my partner moves in such a way that would, in a "natural" situation, break the grip. When such a situation arises these days, I'll let the grip break but will usually try to keep connection through tegatana or some other part of my body.

Tangentially, just as I don't want to have a "death grip" when I'm nage, I sure don't want to have such as uke.

Just my thoughts.

-- Jun

Hi Jun, I agree. A good test of whether you are levering the uke based on his strength of grip or are really establishing musubi or connection, is to have the uke grab you strongly and then ask him to open his hand. You should still be able to do most techniques. If one cannot, one is almost certainly pulling at some point and that was what was breaking the grip.

Dillon 09-20-2006 12:49 PM

Re: Losing grip during katate dori
 
I have very little experience in aikido, having trained it on and off for brief periods as opportunity allows, so I may be way off the mark. Regardless, I'll chime in :)

The first few times I was nage for katate dori, I went fast and hard, and uke couldn't keep a grip. At first, I thought it was just that they weren't holding tightly enough or moving quickly enough. I figured that the faster I could go, the better, since I more commonly play at "hard" martial arts.

Somewhere along the line, I realized that I was off base. As nage, my goal wasn't to get my arm away, but to use that point of connection to lead uke through the technique. It seems obvious, but I had initially looked at the techniques as something to do to make them let go; that uke initiated the attack and I was defending against it with the waza. It seems to me now that I initiate the "attack" by inviting uke's grasp, and that my goal is the neutralization of the situation rather than just defensively "getting my arm back." For this, faster isn't always better; the speed and intensity of the waza matches the power of the attack. So if uke has a soft grip, I have to move in such a way as to keep that connection, so that I can stay in control of the situation.

It's like rythm changes in a striking art. Sometimes, you need to strike as fast as you can right off the back, to overwhelm the opponent. Sometimes, however, a slower attack or a delayed attack is better to draw out the response you need; to get them to committ and unbalance themselves. In striking or aikido waza, it seems that it's not more of any particular quality (speed, power, etcetera) that matters nearly as much as the appropriate amount at the appropriate time. I'm sure it's obvious, but for me there was a gap between intellectually "knowing" this sort of thing and internally "realizing" it.

Anyway, sorry for the rambling nature of my post. Haven't gotten nearly enough sleep lately :) Hope some of it made a little sense, or was at least relevant to the question at hand.


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