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-   -   No touch throw - again? OMG!!! (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10898)

xuzen 09-03-2006 11:01 PM

No touch throw - again? OMG!!!
 
Clip by watanabe FYI, this Watanabe sensei is apparently an 8th Dan teacher, but I am unsure what school he belongs too.

At 0.54" - 1.00" part of the clip, I am baffled... What the hell is he doing?

I have done many years on aikido from Tomiki to Hombu to Yoshinkan, and I have never come across my teachers doing these things to me or my fellow dojo mates.

My question to members of aikiweb, what is your verdict, are these type of no touch throw fake aikido?

If any of you guys/gals are student of Sensei Watanabe, your inputs are welcomed.

Boon.

kocakb 09-03-2006 11:45 PM

Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!
 
I have respect to those people, and because of not have been thrown by "no touch throw", I can not say if it is fake or not. There is a clip by O'Sensei's no touch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjySZuVDkQ

if Watanabe Sensei's no touch technique is fake, then I think he must have learnt it from O'Sensei :)

PS: at the clip of Watanabe Sensei, below at the comments, a guy wrote:
"Great Video! I met Watanabe Sensei last year in munich and I had the possibility to attack him with a Suwariwaza Shomenuchi. He threw me over the mat without even touching me- i think he didn't even move. I never heard about his amazing technique before, so I was very surprised."
and also it is written that more info can be found at:

www.kenbukai.de and interview at http://www.aiki-zen.de

Gernot Hassenpflug 09-04-2006 12:09 AM

Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!
 
Automatic body reaction to some movement by other person. Trained reflex. experience something like that in training too. But the mindset is already prepared beforehand: I am ocming in with expectation to be uke, so what remains is only for tori to make the throw. In training I am giving myself as an opportunity for tori to train too. If I start the attack as tori, then it is quite different, and the other tori has to work his butt off to make anything work.

villrg0a 09-04-2006 12:16 AM

Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!
 
We had a seminar about 2/3 years ago. The visiting shihan explained to us something about "aura", and that it can be developed. Some people have "thin" layers while others have "thick" ones, sort of like an extension of "ki". Naruto calls it chakra :) He said these things can be worked on. Similar to punching, before it reaches the target it's already damaged (stuff like that). It's the same effect when you are riding a motorcyle and then all of sudden a truck overtakes you, then you have a sidewind sort of.

He asked me to punch him in the chest and not withdraw my hand after the punch, he evaded the punch and started to "slowly" approach me, as he is getting nearer I can feel I am starting to move, tilting so to speak, and..... he gets nearer and nearer until his "gi" touches mine and I was completely unbalanced and down I went.

Did I feel power? Not really, it was something else. There could be another explanation but I felt I was being intimidated, something psychological happenned. I was afraid of him. I respected him, and I believed in him, etc., etc.. Put all these factors into consideration and then add the "aura" thingy and there you go.

Well about the video, I think uke is not resisting and that uke is well focused on absorbing nage/shite energy, or another way to put it is that nage's aura/energy is just thick enough for uke.

That's just the way I see it and I am just a newbie to aikido.

wayneth 09-04-2006 01:02 AM

Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!
 
I think that is Nobuyuki Watanabe Sensei, 8th Dan instructor from Aikikai Hombu Dojo. Personally thinking, it's a less harsh way of doing what people like Shioda Sensei have done. Instead of the Uke coming into the hand of Tori, he has backed of a bit. If you get me on this.
I think most people don't see this type of thing because many people are used to having the contact when being thrown, this is probably so of someone like Xuzen. Who is a Yoshinkan practitioner and what I've seen is that they don't let their Uke go until they are about an inch of the ground.
So what Watanabe Sensei is doing is just the same as what Isoyama Sensei, Shioda Sensei etc. have and are doing in their Aikido.
Wayne

Gernot Hassenpflug 09-04-2006 01:09 AM

Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!
 
Yes, the true capability is mostly hidden by the willing uke.

grondahl 09-04-2006 01:13 AM

Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!
 
search for Watanabe on E-budo.

I´m sure that he has solid taijutsu, but those clips with the no-touch stuff makes me cringe and wish that I was in another organisation.

Amir Krause 09-04-2006 01:45 AM

Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!
 
I am not of Aikikai and yet I would be careful of passing any judgment based on this SHOW. It is a part of a demonstration and the intention behind this section is definitely not to show the effective Aikido techniques against an attack. I think the purpose is to show Uke developing sensitivity more and not something else.


Amir

grondahl 09-04-2006 01:56 AM

Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!
 
As I said: his taijutsu is certainly beyond my mere comprehension but the "clap your hands and uke does a backflip from 1,5 meters" that is shown in some of the demos of him still makes me cringe.

wayneth 09-04-2006 02:22 AM

Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!
 
Like Amir said it's probably the sensitivity of his Uke, which is like I said earlier. I mean Tissier Sensei wouldn't be able to do half of the things without his Ukes, if I am right doesn't he use the same Ukes for all his demonstrations.
Shioda Sensei, Saito Sensei etc. all showed this type of feeling in their techniques. Except the only difference between these men and Watanabe Sensei is that their Ukes are more sensitive to what is happening.
Watching demonstrations of Shioda Sensei, his Ukes (more than likely his most senior students?) are sometimes having a hard time taking his techniques. I mean they are shaking their legs, rubbing their necks etc. So again its probably just a less "harmfull" version to what Shioda Sensei did when he demonstrated.

grondahl 09-04-2006 02:49 AM

Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!
 
http://aitekai.dnsdojo.org/jak/film/...20W8%20320.wmv

Clap your hands, say yeah

statisticool 09-04-2006 03:05 AM

Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!
 
Quote:

Xu Wenfung wrote:
Clip by watanabe FYI, this Watanabe sensei is apparently an 8th Dan teacher, but I am unsure what school he belongs too.

At 0.54" - 1.00" part of the clip, I am baffled... What the hell is he doing?

Not to be disrespectful, but because I think such things are disrespectful to the martial arts, it is somewhat difficult to even justify the uke developing sensitivity. Sensitivity to what, flipping when the master claps?

You'd have to then admit that the purpose of that demonstration was then for entertainment. So much for budo!


IMO,
Justin

xuzen 09-04-2006 03:08 AM

Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!
 
Extremely sensitive uke reminds me of Pavlow and his doggy experiments. There is flinch reaction (which is normal human reaction) and then there is ... well the above No Touch Throws.

Grondahl, I too cringe when I see this clip.

Boon.

Dazzler 09-04-2006 05:46 AM

Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!
 
Have to say I don't get this at all.

I try and be open minded about it and assume that maybe I'll see whats going on one day, but when ukes flip like performing seals it just looks like a joke.

Unfortunately the joke is what stands out which is a shame cos I quite like some of the movement albeit made simple by the ukes affinity with the tatami.

Ho hum....another opening for the rest of the MA world to giggle at the expense of Aikido.

kocakb 09-04-2006 06:11 AM

Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!
 
to much harmony while training makes us too "soft" outside. My 15 years old nephew (not doing any MA) was able to make "a tekagami pin" :blush: I was just grapping his wrist, he did it somehow and my body was ready to take an ukemi...I don't think that any other Martial artist would allow this.

To much harmony, being ready to fall and "telegraphed" attacks-techniques makes aikido look fake, feel fake and ineffective. :disgust:

"No touch throw", I don't believe that someone could throw me by clapping hands. On the other hand, there was a technique, we trained. While I attacked my sensei full speed, he kneeled and I could not resist to fall over him. He did not touch me, but this is something else...

Peter Goldsbury 09-04-2006 07:24 AM

Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!
 
Hello,

Before you guys crucify Watanabe Sensei here, please remember that his demonstrations in May are usually quite different from his regular classes at the Hombu. I have taken his classes at the Hombu and they are quite 'normal', with strong attacks expected and no 'no-touch' techniques.

As for O Sensei, well, I cannot comment. But I suggest those who believe that the ukes were tanking for O Sensei talk to his deshi: Tamura, Yamada and especially Chiba, before reaching any conclusions.

I think Watanabe Sensei plays to the gallery at these All-Japan demonstrations, as did Mr Seagal a few years ago. In all cases the ukes are usually students or deshi of the shihan. In no cases are they persons who have never trained with the shihan. So they know what the techniques are likely to be. For example, Isoyama Sensei never does a demonstration in May unless he has an uke who is accustomed to his kata-guruma techniques. If not, it woild be too dangerous. So, what would be the purpose of such a demonstration? I leave you to decide.

In addition, students in aikido clubs at Japanese pride themselves on being able to take 'perfect' ukemi. In some sense, being a student at a Japanese university aikido club is an exploration of the limitations of one's own body, in relation to the 'Platonic' ukemi form. Thus , the ukes for ALL the shihans are their own close students, who are chosen because they can do the ukemi expected by their shihan very well.

Finally, I have seen one situation where a shihan at a demonstration used an uke with whom he had never trained before: the uke was injured.

I think demonstrations are very special and should be avoided unless absolutely necessary.

Best wishes,

Mary Eastland 09-04-2006 09:11 AM

Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!
 
Peter Goldsbury wrote.....I think demonstrations are very special and should be avoided unless absolutely necessary.
Best wishes,[/quote]

Hi Peter:

I am not sure what you mean by your final sentence. Could you clarify, please? :)

On another note:

I enjoyed this demonstration. Thank you, Xuzen, for posting it. The ukes are amazing and Watanabe Sensei's timing is impeccable.

Mary

Don_Modesto 09-04-2006 10:08 AM

Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!
 
Quote:

Peter Gröndahl wrote:
I´m sure that he has solid taijutsu, but those clips with the no-touch stuff makes me cringe and wish that I was in another organisation.

Me, too.

I'm told by a witness to the occasion that Watanabe once made an appearance in Miami where he tried the no-touch stuff. His laconic UKE--Dr. Johnson redux, God love him!--smacked him upside the head.

Watanabe made his displeasure known and UKE was invited off the mat.

I can't say if he's precisely a BS artist, there might be something to be gained studyinng the vectors of his movement (Osawa did some very slomo aikido, too, and I don't doubt him), but he IS, at least, a bad loser.

And that video... if Jim Carrey did it on SNL, it'd be comedy.

wayneth 09-04-2006 10:18 AM

Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!
 
I would imagine many of the senior Shihan have their little things which they love to perform and many people think "their attacker is just jumping" etc.
I mean I think sometimes that what Kanetsuka Sensei is doing at the moment, is just because his Uke are helping him to do it. This was until I felt it personally and really started thinking what is he doing?
Wasn't Saito Sensei thought to be a "fraud" in the 70s because his Aikido didn't to that of O Sensei in his video demonstrations. So I guess this is the same thing as what Mr Goldsbury said about Watanabe Sensei playing to the crowd at these demonstrations. Since O Sensei never did what he thought was his Aikido to the public, probably because he was a big Martial Art Traditionalist (almost Samurai like in his attitude).
Didn't Saito Sensei dislocate one of his Ukes shoulders before, I think it was at one of the All-Japan Demonstrations.
Wayne

wayneth 09-04-2006 11:43 AM

Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjyS...elated&search=

Peter Goldsbury 09-04-2006 07:02 PM

Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!
 
Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote:
Peter Goldsbury wrote.....I think demonstrations are very special and should be avoided unless absolutely necessary.
Best wishes,

Hi Peter:

I am not sure what you mean by your final sentence. Could you clarify, please? :)

On another note:

I enjoyed this demonstration. Thank you, Xuzen, for posting it. The ukes are amazing and Watanabe Sensei's timing is impeccable.

Mary[/quote]

Hello Mary,

I was brought up in an aikido school of thought according to which demonstrations are no different from one's daily training. In other words, if you need to do a demonstration, you show precisely the kind of waza that you would do in a class. This is one reason why I do not like some parts of the All-Japan Demonstration. They are too staged and some shihans appear to do 'special' waza, just because it is a demonstration.

So then the question arises why one would need to a 'demonstration', as against 'normal training'. In O Sensei's case, the demonstration was an expression of respect to the emperor and the demonstrations held in Iwama are done for a similar particular purpose, as an offering to the shrine deities.

However, my way of thinking is probably conservative.

Best wishes,

raul rodrigo 09-04-2006 07:13 PM

Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!
 
Quote:

Wayne Price wrote:
Didn't Saito Sensei dislocate one of his Ukes shoulders before, I think it was at one of the All-Japan Demonstrations.
Wayne


It was Shigemi Inagaki, 7th dan, who Saito injured—Inagaki was one of Saito's most senior students. In Iwama he was called the "resident monster." If even an Inagaki can get injured in a demonstration, then we might want to rethink the idea of demonstrations.

xuzen 09-04-2006 11:21 PM

Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!
 
Grrrr.... Mary. You should not encourage these behaviour. If you like to see body fliiping about when someone claps, you get plenty of those from SEA-WORLD (TM).

kocakb 09-04-2006 11:45 PM

Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!
 
Quote:

Xu Wenfung wrote:
Grrrr.... Mary. You should not encourage these behaviour. If you like to see body fliiping about when someone claps, you get plenty of those from SEA-WORLD (TM).

:D :D :D funny, you made me smile ;)

wayneth 09-05-2006 12:09 AM

Re: No touch throw - again? OMG!!!
 
Wasn't it O Sensei that did not like to do demonstrations, especially infront of high ranking officials. Because of something that he would have to show the real Aikido, which meant that he would have to break peoples bones or something. Can someone clarify this please, I think it was in the 1930's when Shioda Sensei was at the Kobukan?
The reason I put up the clip of O Sensei (which I believe was his last public teaching or demonstration) was because Ueshiba Sensei is doing almost the same as Watanabe Sensei, except I believe it is a bit more believable because his Ukes are not flipping.
Wayne


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