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-   -   What "kajo" means? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1089)

andrea anzalone 08-16-2001 04:42 AM

What "kajo" means?
 
What "kajo" means?
regards
andrea

Greg Jennings 08-16-2001 05:18 AM

Re: What "kajo" means?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by andrea anzalone
What "kajo" means?
regards
andrea

A language expert might correct me on this, but I think it's pretty much the same as "kyo".

Ikkajo means "First Teaching" just like ikkyo.

Here's another resource:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia/index.asp

Best,

Kami 08-16-2001 05:28 AM

Re: What "kajo" means?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by andrea anzalone
What "kajo" means?
regards
andrea

KAMI : To this and to other questions, this site may be useful :
http://www.aoinagi.org/glossary/agloss_view_tree.htm
Best

andrea anzalone 08-16-2001 06:28 AM

Re: Re: What "kajo" means?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Kami


KAMI : To this and to other questions, this site may be useful :
http://www.aoinagi.org/glossary/agloss_view_tree.htm
Best

thanks a lot for the answer to greg and kami.
Now i have a problem! if ikkyo is "only" the name of an harmlock why it was called kyo=teaching (and, above all, the first teaching) and not technique?

Greg Jennings 08-16-2001 08:21 AM

Re: Re: Re: What "kajo" means?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by andrea anzalone

thanks a lot for the answer to greg and kami.
Now i have a problem! if ikkyo is "only" the name of an harmlock why it was called kyo=teaching (and, above all, the first teaching) and not technique?

It is, obviously, not "only the name of an armlock".

How is the connection to uke's center of balance achieved? How does, say, katatedori ikkyo omote relate to katatedori nikyo omote, ditto sankyo and yonkyo?

Observe, listen, research, cogitate on it and, above all, train, train, train.

In time, you'll find _your_ answer. It'll probably be different from _my_ answer. I know the answer I have _now_ is different from the one I had just two or three years ago.

A bigger question is why you should have to work to find your answer rather than have mine or anyone else's given to you.

Best,

andrea anzalone 08-16-2001 09:27 AM

Re: Re: Re: Re: What "kajo" means?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Greg Jennings


It is, obviously, not "only the name of an armlock".

How is the connection to uke's center of balance achieved? How does, say, katatedori ikkyo omote relate to katatedori nikyo omote, ditto sankyo and yonkyo?

Observe, listen, research, cogitate on it and, above all, train, train, train.

In time, you'll find _your_ answer. It'll probably be different from _my_ answer. I know the answer I have _now_ is different from the one I had just two or three years ago.

A bigger question is why you should have to work to find your answer rather than have mine or anyone else's given to you.

Best,

Hi Greg,
i don't like answer like "Observe, listen, research, cogitate on it and, above all, train, train, train.
In time, you'll find _your_ answer." Too many people (or so called masters) have covered their ignorance by means of this phrase . Quiet, i don't want to say that you are ignorant (in this case i'm the first of ignorant because i don't write a good english! smile!)but only what i writed.
I think that men can improve themself by exchanging their own knowledges and working on hardly and that this concept could be applied on aikido as well. So by means of your answer/opinion i and others could grown up in aiki, and vice versa. For example:How is the connection to uke's center of balance achieved? How does, say, katatedori ikkyo omote relate to katatedori nikyo omote, ditto sankyo and yonkyo?
Best Regards.
Andrea anzalone

Peter Goldsbury 09-02-2001 02:07 AM

All my Japanese language budo books are in my office, so a fuller reply will have to wait till I go and check, but I can answer your question to some extent now.

'Ik-ka-jo' simply means 'first item', or 'first point'. In the glossary referred to by Ubaldo, it is given as the first technique in Daito-ryu, but the Japanese characters are not given. One possibility is 箇条.

As someone else said, the 'kyo' of 'ik-kyo' means 'teaching' or 'religion'. When applied to aikido techniques, the meaning becomes somewhat artificial, but 'first teaching' seems a reasonable translation.

It should be understood that the Founder of aikido did not use any names for techniques. These were coined by the students in order to remember what they had been taught. It is plausible that ikkyo was preferred to ikkajo by members of the Aikikai. There is also a logical progression from 1-kyo to 4-kyo in the sense that the four forms can be done successively in one movement (from elbow, to base of thumb, to base of wrist, to nerve point in wrist).

Yours sincerely,

P A Goldsbury

mj 09-02-2001 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury

It should be understood that the Founder of aikido did not use any names for techniques. These were coined by the students in order to remember what they had been taught...

P A Goldsbury

Once again you have amazed me Peter!
(Rhetorically) This is true???

Peter Goldsbury 09-02-2001 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mj


Once again you have amazed me Peter!
(Rhetorically) This is true???

Here are a couple of pointers. If you look at the texts allegedly written by the Founder, there are no names for any of the techniques. In "Budo Renshu", produced in 1933, the techniques are all numbered and the same is true of "Budo", produced in 1938. John Stevens' English translation gives 50 numbered techniques. The fact that in neither case was the text actually written by the Founder is not relevant here.

If you look at "Aikido", the Japanese original of the work with the same title written by Kisshomaru Ueshiba, which was written in the 1960s and reprinted recently, certain names are used, but 'omote' and 'ura', for example, are identified with 'irimi' and 'tenkan'. I have it on the authority of Masatake Fujita, of the Aikikai Hombu, that O Sensei did not use these names himself.

It was Hiroshi Tada, 9th dan, who explained to me that the deshi students like himself hit upon the present names for the techniques as a way of remembering them.

Yours sincerely,

P A Goldsbury

mj 09-02-2001 07:39 PM

Ahhh, now you have my total attention....
'allegedly' ????

Peter Goldsbury 09-02-2001 08:17 PM

The edition I have of "Budo Renshu" is the facsimile reproduction with English translation, published in 1978. The Japanese text is very interesting. The Preface, the section entitled "Essence of the Techniques", and the comments on the 166 techniques were all hand written by the same person. In "Aikido Masters", this person is stated my Takako Kunigoshi to be "a friend of a Mr Takamatsu" who was "the owner of a confectionery shop in the Yotsuya area". O Sensei got to know of the book project and became involved with it, but it is clear from the conversations with Ms. Kunigoshi that he did not write the text. The only thing by O Sensei is the "Secret Teaching of Budo".

Incidentally, I should correct a mistake I made in my earlier post. Ms. Kunigoshi states in her interview in "Modern Masters" that O Sensei used the terms 'Ikkajo' and 'nikajo' but that is all. He did not use the current nomenclature.

Yours sincerely,

P A Goldsbury

Kami 09-03-2001 12:33 AM

"SECRET TEACHING OF BUDO"(???)
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury
The only thing by O Sensei is the "Secret Teaching of Budo".
P A Goldsbury

YAMANTAKA : And now it's my turn to say "UH???":confused:
I never heard of that book, Goldsbury Sama! Can you tell us anything about it? Or it's just a part of "BUDO"?
Very curious

Peter Goldsbury 09-03-2001 04:32 AM

Ubaldo,

Do not be alarmed. I have no way of writing italics in this forum, which would be the accepted way of signalling book titles. Double quotation marks are the accepted way of signalling sections within books, or articles in journals.

What I am referring to is a section in "Budo" which I have given with its Englih title. Another title is "Poems of the Way". In "Budo" this section is writen in cursive characters and I gather that it was written by the Founder himself.

Best regards,

Peter Goldsbury

mle 09-03-2001 04:55 PM

Re: What "kajo" means?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by andrea anzalone
What "kajo" means?
regards
andrea

Hi Andrea,

Kajyo (kajo) is sort of a bullet point. Ikajyo is first item (in a list), nikkajyo, second, etc.

Kyo, in this reference means teaching and has connotations of deeper meaning than a list of items, thought ikkyo CAN mean first (in a list) as well.

Kyo is not, if I understand correctly (and may be dead wrong) the same kyo as religion (as in Omoto Kyo).

The _name_ of ikkyo is ude osae, which means to press (or secure) the arm. More or less.

Nikyo used to be called either kote mawashi (turning the wrist) or kote hineri (twisting the wrist) depending on who you ask. Sankyo, I've always head called kote hineri, by the way.

Yonkyo is tekubi osae, gokyo is ude no bashi and rokkyo is hiji shime (yes, Virginia, there are techniques numbered five and six nad according tom some senior aikido folks, techniques numbered through nine or ten!) ...

For what all that's worth ...

cg

Peter Goldsbury 09-04-2001 03:33 AM

Re: Re: What "kajo" means?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by mle


Kyo is not, if I understand correctly (and may be dead wrong) the same kyo as religion (as in Omoto Kyo).

cg

The Chinese characters are the same and the meaning is related.

The character 教 has the Japanese reading of oshieru, meaning 'to teach, give lessons', and also osowaru, meaning to learn, to take lessons. So, in this sense, 'ikkyo' could conceivably mean 'the first thing we learn'.

The Kojien, p.686, gives the following definition of 'kyou'.

教 (きょう = kYOU)

1. おしえること oshierukoto = teaching.
The compounds 教育 (kyouiku = education), 教員 (kyouin = teacher) are given as examples.

2. 神仏などの教え Shinbutsu-nado-no-oshie =
the teachings of gods and buddhas.
The compounds 教会 (kyoukai = church), 宗教 (shuukyou = religion), キリスト教 (kirisuto-kyou = Christianity) are given as examples.

Yours sincerely,

P A Goldsbury

mariko nakamura 09-04-2001 04:10 AM

Dear Peter,
Is there any way that I can get a copy of this book you are talking about. I went to the book stores around here but I couldn't find what your talking about. Toyama is a pretty small city, we dont have hardly any Aikido books here.
Mick.

Peter Goldsbury 09-04-2001 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mariko nakamura
Dear Peter,
Is there any way that I can get a copy of this book you are talking about. I went to the book stores around here but I couldn't find what your talking about. Toyama is a pretty small city, we dont have hardly any Aikido books here.
Mick.

Mick,

I would think that the 1978 reprint with translation of "Budo Renshu" is out of print, difficult to find, and expensive if you do manage to find a copy (my new copy cost 15,000 yen). I would think a serious attempt to find this book would necessitate a trip round the used book shops in Kanda, Tokyo, or a trawl through the Japanese Internet.

However, there is an English version of the book entitled, "Budo Training in Aikido" and this might still be available. Perhaps you should try all the various sites of Amazon.com to start with.

As for martial arts books in Toyama, you have my sympathy. We have the same problem here in Hiroshima and I think it is rather bigger than Toyama. I think the local Maruzen rearranges all the English books occasionally, just to make people think some new ones have arrived.

For English books on relatively arcane subjects like the martial arts, I have to go to Tokyo, usually to Kitazawa in Jimbocho, or the big Kinokuniya in Times Square, Shinjuku.

Best regards and good hunting,

Peter Goldsbury

Peter Goldsbury 09-06-2001 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury
All my Japanese language budo books are in my office, so a fuller reply will have to wait till I go and check, but I can answer your question to some extent now.


In the interests of complete accuracy, essential in a forum such as this, I offer some supplementary details to those given earlier.

As I stated before, 一箇条, 一--条 ( = ikkajo) simply means the first of a series. However, in Aikido Nyumon, 合気"ケ"-- by Gozo Shioda, the phrase is not used alone. The term is 一--条抑え ( = ikkajo osae : first control, and so on to yonkajo osae. These terms are also used in Shioda's "Dynamic Aikido", which was first published in 1968. At this time, Kisshomaru Ueshiba had alreay written "Aikido", a Japanese text which uses th terms ikkyo, nikyo etc for the same techniques.

Peter Goldsbury

mariko nakamura 09-06-2001 06:32 AM

Thanks Peter.
I've been to Kinokuniya before and very soon I'm going to Tokyo for some shopping. Maybe I'll have some luck and find this book.
I have the english translation "BudoTraining In Aikido" already but I would love to have the chance to read the original japanese version.
Once again thanks for the suggestions.

Mick


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