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-   -   Kotegaeshi as an expression of love (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10863)

dps 08-27-2006 12:32 PM

Kotegaeshi as an expression of love
 
To O'Sensei Budo is love, Aikido is the true Budo then Aikido is an expression of love. Where in the execution of kotegaeshi is love expressed?

Roman Kremianski 08-27-2006 12:34 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi as an expression of love
 
Remember to use erm... protection.

Aiki x 08-27-2006 01:21 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi as an expression of love
 
lol :)

statisticool 08-27-2006 02:12 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi as an expression of love
 
Quote:

David Skaggs wrote:
To O'Sensei Budo is love, Aikido is the true Budo then Aikido is an expression of love. Where in the execution of kotegaeshi is love expressed?

1) its defensive

2) you can hold on to facilitate a safer breakfall for the attacker

3) you're holding hands, thus reaching 1st base with the attacker

markwalsh 08-27-2006 02:42 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi as an expression of love
 
When you tenkan you can can slap uke´s rear with the other hand - a cheeky atemi.

Is this a serious question? Control not destruction would be my answer. I once put kote gaeshi on a drunk grieving friend who had got violent - no more harm done, just a little sore wrist and head the next day - there is the love as the black eyed peas said.

Erick Mead 08-27-2006 03:24 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi as an expression of love
 
Quote:

David Skaggs wrote:
To O'Sensei Budo is love, Aikido is the true Budo then Aikido is an expression of love. Where in the execution of kotegaeshi is love expressed?

To a surgeon -- it is love to cut off a finger -- to save the hand -- the hand, to save the arm -- the arm, to save the man.

Budo is love -- and those who practice budo must be just as brutal and as precise as the surgeon, clearly perceiving the danger with unsentimental necessity, and removing the source of danger, while leaving what is unoffending as untouched as his skill and the needs of circumstance allow. Aikido trains us in such skills, too make any attack unthreatening, and within our power to heal, or staunch at least, rather than merely to cut it off.

Kotgaeshi? -- Better to take his balance than his wrist, better his wrist than his elbow, better his elbow than his whole arm, and better them all than taking his head and his entire life with it.

dps 08-27-2006 04:46 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi as an expression of love
 
Yes it is meant as a serious question, although a little humour never hurts ( wearing protection is not an expression of love, it is a way of paticipating while avoiding unwanted consequences). :)

Aikido is the art of peace, love, harmony. Shouldn't we be aware of these things as we practice Aikido techniques such as kotegaeshi ,express them in our movements, not just discuss them between practices.

To love you need to know how to hate, to have peace you need to know how to wage war, to harmonize you need to know how to disrupt . These are the things we practice when we do Aikido/kotegaeshi. We also practice control of our bodies, minds and spirits. We express our love, harmony, peaceful intent by our control. We should be like Erik's surgeon.

statisticool 08-27-2006 07:04 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi as an expression of love
 
Also wear a pink gi, maybe sew on some hearts.

PeterR 08-27-2006 07:27 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi as an expression of love
 
Well I just LOVE to do kotegaishi.

Mary Turner 08-27-2006 07:40 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi as an expression of love
 
Quote:

Also wear a pink gi, maybe sew on some hearts.
Great, Justin, now everybody knows about your Valentine's gi!

Mary

dps 08-27-2006 08:54 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi as an expression of love
 
Quote:

Erick Mead wrote:

Kotgaeshi? -- Better to take his balance than his wrist, better his wrist than his elbow, better his elbow than his whole arm, and better them all than taking his head and his entire life with it.

With apologies to Eric I would add, better to take his life than he take the lives of others.

Mark Uttech 08-27-2006 09:48 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi as an expression of love
 
kotegaeshi is something to study. You get to study the technique, you get to study uke's reaction (which could be different everytime), and you get to study how you handle the reaction.

In gassho
Mark

Erick Mead 08-27-2006 10:19 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi as an expression of love
 
Quote:

David Skaggs wrote:
With apologies to Eric I would add, better to take his life than he take the lives of others.

None needed.

Gernot Hassenpflug 08-27-2006 10:46 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi as an expression of love
 
Be very careful what you put into that head, because you will never, ever get it out!
- not my saying!

eyrie 08-28-2006 12:53 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi as an expression of love
 
Quick, don't think of a pink elephant...

xuzen 08-28-2006 02:01 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi as an expression of love
 
Quote:

David Skaggs wrote:
To O'Sensei Budo is love, Aikido is the true Budo then Aikido is an expression of love. Where in the execution of kotegaeshi is love expressed?

You could always give uke some Tender Loving Care after the K_O_tegashi. :D

Boon.

MikeLogan 08-28-2006 06:29 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi as an expression of love
 
Quote:

maybe sew on some hearts
I would imagine it terribly inappropriate to have a heart on during practice. And to anyone missing the joke, read it out loud, unless you're at work.

tee-hee.

On the serous note, I find my kote gaeshi to be odd. While it brings people down, I have more the experience of suddenly stretching out uke into a prone position (Sounds weirder than it looks) than being able to illicit a break fall. I believe it has to do with a deficiency in tenkan throughout the technique. They always go down, but it's not as slam-bam thank you mam as it could be. Maybe mine is the lovey-dovey version you're looking for David?

Irimi tenkan off line to the outside of tsuki (for descriptions sake), but instead of the full second tenkan with the throw, I have the habit of stepping perpendicularly away from the line of attack during the throw. It's like a part turn, but not a full tenkan, and while it stretches them out to the point of backfalling, it doesn't twist them up enough for a breakfall.

Just thought I'd toss that out for analysis. My brain is pretty sure that's the reasoning behind my wimpy kote gaeshi, but my body is not quite there yet.

michael.

dps 08-28-2006 07:30 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi as an expression of love
 
Quote:

Mike Logan wrote:
e. Maybe mine is the lovey-dovey version you're looking for David?

I am not looking for a lovey-dovey version of kotegaeshi or any Aikido technique. :) The techniques of Aikido like kotegaeshi were intended to disable an opponent by dislocation or breaking the wrist,elbow,shoulder so that he could be killed or unable to fight anymore. We do not practice kotegaeshi this way now, but the dangers of injury in practice is still there if nage does not practice kotegaeshi the way he/she was taught to. There are variations to kotegaeshi that can result in injury in practice or even worse if used outside the dojo against someone who does not know ukemi. It is the control that nage learns and uses that prevents the injuries. In practice why do you use that control so you don't hurt uke? Isn't learning a technique that can seriously injure or kill someone but practicing it in a way not to the basic, beginning way to express the love O'Sensei talked about?

MikeLogan 08-28-2006 07:56 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi as an expression of love
 
Quote:

David wrote:
In practice why do you use that control, so you don't hurt uke? Isn't learning a technique that can seriously injure or kill someone but practicing it in a way not to, the basic, beginning way to express the love O'Sensei talked about?

Umm, I think so. I was just being facetious, I shouldn't use terms like that outside of expressing humor. I meant something more along the lines of how you ended your post. The humane approach to neutralization, though if you can't choose every technical option, than you might not be able to make humane behaviour an option anyhow, which is why I need to work on my kote gaeshi.

dps 08-28-2006 08:26 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi as an expression of love
 
Quote:

Mike Logan wrote:
which is why I need to work on my kote gaeshi.

As you are working on your kotegaeshi don't think of pink elephants in pink gis with hearts sewn on. :) :)

ChrisMoses 08-28-2006 09:46 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi as an expression of love
 
Quote:

David Skaggs wrote:
To O'Sensei Budo is love, Aikido is the true Budo then Aikido is an expression of love. Where in the execution of kotegaeshi is love expressed?


What kind of love? Ever research what word OSensei was using that got translated to love? There are several. And in what context was it said? Japanese is very contextual, so you have to look at how he said it, where he said it and who he said it to. Just throwing that out there.

Robert Rumpf 08-28-2006 11:02 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi as an expression of love
 
Quote:

David Skaggs wrote:
To O'Sensei Budo is love, Aikido is the true Budo then Aikido is an expression of love. Where in the execution of kotegaeshi is love expressed?

Love is expressed throughout the execution of kotegaeshi.

Rob

dps 08-28-2006 11:05 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi as an expression of love
 
Quote:

Christian Moses wrote:
What kind of love?

Compassion and charity.

Gernot Hassenpflug 08-28-2006 05:03 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi as an expression of love
 
Quote:

Robert Rumpf wrote:
Love is expressed throughout the execution of kotegaeshi.

Love is expressed throughout the execution. :D

ian 08-29-2006 05:19 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi as an expression of love
 
Quote:

David Skaggs wrote:
...Where in the execution of kotegaeshi is love expressed?

Aikido is not just the execution of its techniques. If you go up to a stranger and just perform kote-gaeshi it is not an expression of love. However, if someone attacks you, and instead of breaking their wrist or pummeling their face, you perform a non-lethal and non-permanently damaging technique which still allows them to complete their attack - you are expressing at least a caring atitude for your attacker (whilst protecting your own interests).

Idealistic, I'd agree. I haven't quite reached the capability of Ueshiba, so personally my real-life kote-gaeshi may be sub-standard in its ability to express love :)


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