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-   -   Kokyu Nage techniques do they work? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10784)

Aiki x 08-10-2006 10:58 AM

Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?
 
There are numerous kokyu nages. Are they actual techniques that would work in real life or are they drills for developing timing?

Many kokyu nages seem to rely on a willingness by Uke to fall. Techniques that don't require Uke to jump require attacks that are so over committed that they are unrealistic. (i.e. Uke is practically falling over)

For example the kokyu nage that involves dropping to your knees and throwing an opponent who has grabbed both your hands. Try doing that technique on a Judoka or a beginner. It just won't work. I still practise it, but I try and see it as a drill rather than a technique.

What do you guys think? I know I am generalising.

Ron Tisdale 08-10-2006 11:13 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?
 
I think that without the ability to raise uke's center the waza described becomes a timing exercise. In other words, if you can not connect with uke's center in a way that steals their power, and that takes their balance upwards first (before the 'duck under'), your sucsess is dependant on timing the throw to such a precision that the throw becomes not very practical.

However, if you can raise uke just like in kokyu ho dosa keiko, where you absorb their power to push into you, and raise their center before throwing, then you can find ways to really use this throw. Lot's to practice.

If you want to base this throw more on timing, try using it as the 3rd or 4th throw in jiyu waza...after you've pounded uke a bit ;) enter early offering the hands before they settle their weight...then just keep entering with the arms doing an omega sign lifting them up slightly, then drop and let them ride the wave. :)

Best,
Ron

markwalsh 08-10-2006 11:13 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?
 
Opinion:
Training tool for most of us.
The only thing that really works in the end.

mjchip 08-10-2006 11:18 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?
 
Hi Neil,

As a datapoint, I spent the past week or so teaching various kokyunage from shomenuchi. We probably covered 25+ different variations. None of them required an uke with a "willingness to fall" in order to work.

It is true that there are some kokyu nage from grabbing attacks that require uke to give a committed grab [in the dojo] for you to be able to practice them.

However, in a practical scenario, if the attacker begins to grab but does not commit to the grab or senses nage's movement and lets go that's fine. As nage begins to move to achieve kuzushi and uke lets go, nage should be in a safe position with good posture and be ready to deal with uke's continuing attack. I would call this a success if nage didn't actually get grabbed. There doesn't have to be a throw and nage shouldn't be concerned with/fixated on any particular outcome.

Back to training *basic* kata, uke is expected to always give a committed attack be it grab, kick, punch, or strike. At a more advanced level, I like to work with uncommitted attacks as well (i.e. feints, setups, etc.). I also like to practice cases where nage initiates the physical portion of the encounter and basically takes advantage of uke's reaction to throw/lock/pin/strike/choke him/her.

I hope this helps answer your question......

In aiki spirit,

Mark Chiappetta

sullivanw 08-10-2006 12:48 PM

Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?
 
My knee-jerk reaction is to say, "Yes, they do work," but I really don't have the experience...
How about this: If uke's balance isn't taken (and/or uke doen't stay connected), shouldn't nage be in a position where there is an immediate opportunity for atemi-waza? Maybe a different throw? While the kokyu nage may not work, wouldn't formal technique still set the stage for a viable self-defense?

-Will

Dirk Hanss 08-10-2006 04:07 PM

Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?
 
Quote:

Mark Walsh wrote:
Opinion:
Training tool for most of us.
The only thing that really works in the end.

Just my 2 cts, which I cannot proof as I am still not good enough.

I was told, in fact every throw is a kokyunage and works by kokyu power. Others explain kokyunage as "timing throw".

I would say it is timing and very sensitive reaction on uke's direction and extend of power. And that is, what all aikido technique is about. If you cannot do a kokyunage, you cannot survive against stronger faster and more flexible opponents. Then you are just doing Jujutsu with the aikido syllabus.

So it is a training tools to expand your sensitivity and adequate reaction and timing AND it is the only thing that works even with much less physical power.



Dirk

markwalsh 08-10-2006 04:54 PM

Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?
 
Dirk - well put, that's what I meant to say :-)
I'd add (taken form my tecaher in the UK) that the crucial element in kokyu nage thorws is contact - ie that uke hangs on.
Incidentally if anyoen has seen Kanetsuka Sensei do kokyu nage and can explain what is going on I like to know, as what he does is WAY out of my league.

Upyu 08-10-2006 05:03 PM

Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?
 
Do a search for "Ki" on this board, and you'll get more than enough info I think, if you can wade through the bickering.

I just put up an article about the basis for developing a body in a martial context (in the training section), and that stuff applies directly to developing "kokyu" power.

From my own experience I'm pretty sure that
a) its not timing
b) while breath can be used to help train it (from a physical perspective), it is not just the "breath"
c) it is a physical skill
d) you can train the body directly to develop this skill within 2 years if you know how.

Upyu 08-10-2006 05:05 PM

Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?
 
Quote:

Mark Walsh wrote:
Dirk - well put, that's what I meant to say :-)
I'd add (taken form my tecaher in the UK) that the crucial element in kokyu nage thorws is contact - ie that uke hangs on.
Incidentally if anyoen has seen Kanetsuka Sensei do kokyu nage and can explain what is going on I like to know, as what he does is WAY out of my league.

If your skill is good then it's not that Uke hangs on, he really is unable to let go ;)

markwalsh 08-10-2006 05:11 PM

Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?
 
yeah - two versions of contact - I like the one you descibe.

Aristeia 08-10-2006 05:27 PM

Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?
 
Absolutely they work. The don't require a commitment from uke to fall so much as a commitment to attack. I always viewed kokyu throws as the unbalancing part of the kihon waza done large enough that nothing further is needed. The implication of which being that if you don't get uke's balance with the kokyu enough to make them fall it should just flow into another waza.
Quote:

Dirk wrote:
If you cannot do a kokyunage, you cannot survive against stronger faster and more flexible opponents. Then you are just doing Jujutsu with the aikido syllabus.

curious as to what you mean by that?

markwalsh 08-10-2006 05:36 PM

Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?
 
So there's an aikido bumper sticker with "Aikido - nothing works" on, and I've just relised you can read it two ways. Clever.

NagaBaba 08-10-2006 08:43 PM

Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?
 
Kokyu nage are completly useless as teaching tools. Don't waste your time to do two milions of kokyu nage every day. This track lead to the precipice.Don't cheat yourself -- you are not 8th dan.
Beacause ability of doing kokyu nage must be a RESULT of your traning. Not a START. Before you can do that, one must practice locking, leverages, etc...in one word -- Real Things.
Quote:

The implication of which being that if you don't get uke's balance with the kokyu enough to make them fall it should just flow into another waza.
And what will put uke out of balance? Your firm glance? :) May be KI power? LOL
No my friend. Forget kokyu nage. Forget esoteric theories.
Kanetsuka sensei teachs exactly like that -- strong locks right from the beginning.

Quote:

Then you are just doing Jujutsu with the aikido syllabus.
Yes, exactly like that. One must start by doing(many years!!!) Jujutsu with the aikido syllabus -- if he is not experiences martial artist or fighter. There are not shortcuts. O sensei did it for years before being able to do koyu nage on ANYBODY.
Or you think may be we, mortals, are more gifted then he was?

MikeLogan 08-10-2006 09:51 PM

Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?
 
Quote:

Unpronouncable One wrote:
Or you think may be we, mortals, are more gifted then he was?

It is more frightening to consider this, than the other way around, for tons of reasons.

Happy Friday, almost!

michael.

Aristeia 08-10-2006 11:28 PM

Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote:

And what will put uke out of balance? Your firm glance? :) May be KI power? LOL
No my friend. Forget kokyu nage. Forget esoteric theories.
Kanetsuka sensei teachs exactly like that -- strong locks right from the beginning.

nonsense. Kokyu nage works and it can work ql;uite early. I was getting more value out of kokyu in the early play around with your mates phase than I was out of many kihon. Provided you get a committed attack.

Let me rephrase my previous point - if your kokyu doesn't put them down then you transition into kihon.
Take Shomen Uchu. You can step through and turn, guiding the attacking arm down for a kokyu throw. If you mis time it or they recover you can maintain connection and draw them through for a shiho nage.
There's nothing esoteric about it. No need for mysterious Ki discussions.
Phases of Aikido techniques =
Ma'ai
Moving of the line
Taking balance
Leading
finishing (individual techniques)

If the taking balance is done far enough to lead them straight to the ground, that = kokyu. If not, go on to the next step.

raul rodrigo 08-11-2006 12:23 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?
 
To me, kokyu nage is the litmus test for a really good aikidoka. Its simultaneously the area where the worst and the best kinds of aikido appear. The fluffy mindless self deluding kind. And the truly martial, powerful, effortless kind.

xuzen 08-11-2006 12:38 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?
 
Kokyu-nage is a loose term. I would consider them as uki-waza (aka floating technique) which requires shite to extend uke to the point of unbalance, then add a little push at the correct direction to effect the throw/projection.
Quote:

Aristeia wrote:
Take Shomen Uchu. You can step through and turn, guiding the attacking arm down for a kokyu throw. If you mis time it or they recover you can maintain connection and draw them through for a shiho nage.

The same can be said if you draw them out and subsequently stick your leg out to impede uke's movement, you'll probably get O-Guruma or Tai-Otoshi.

Boon

raul rodrigo 08-11-2006 12:44 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?
 
Kokyu nage is a loose term, true. And in judo, Uki otoshi, the floating drop, (not uki waza, which is a sacrifice throw) is the one that best exemplifies the aiki qualities in judo. The tenth dan Kyuzo Mifune had an absolutely beautiful uki otoshi that any aikido yudansha would be proud to be able to do.

Dazzler 08-11-2006 02:17 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
Kokyu nage are completly useless as teaching tools. Don't waste your time to do two milions of kokyu nage every day.

That may be your experience.

I've seen the opposite where the moves from kokyuho nages are related to more "technique" based activities and there is a structured development process in place.

In this case they are VERY USEFUL as a teaching tool, developing movement without the hindrance of the students slipping into 'fight mode' without using the correct moves.

I would tend to agree that kokyuho nage in isolation has reduced benefits but when aligned with more "technique" based stuff I feel major synergy is achieved.

Incidentally - very few things are completely useless. Sitting in the corner of the mat meditating is good for some, training like a maniac is good for others.

To me there is no black and white...hence the white and black spots in the white and black areas within yin yang sign for MA.
(if you follow me.... ;) )


Respectfully

D

Dirk Hanss 08-11-2006 03:08 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
Kokyu nage are completly useless as teaching tools.
(...)

Yes, exactly like that. One must start by doing(many years!!!) Jujutsu with the aikido syllabus -- if he is not experiences martial artist or fighter. There are not shortcuts. O sensei did it for years before being able to do koyu nage on ANYBODY.
Or you think may be we, mortals, are more gifted then he was?

Thank you, Szczepan forthe compliment. And all the others, too.

I do not want to argue about the first point. You are the teacher, not me.

I totally agree, that it necessary to do the technique as Jujutsu in the beginning. No objection.

And now I am getting on black ice, as I do not know all the variations of Jujutsu.

As I understood, the idea of Jujutsu is (very simplified) "To improve your technique, use more power and speed. If that is not enough, there are some tricks to get along."
So you start with body-building, weight lifting, running, etc. until you are as fit as possible. Then you are refining your technique.

My understanding of aikido is, that you use as few physical power as possible. You use all gearing effects, you can (strong locks) and all energy your opponent provides. Everything that is missing must be taken from your own power and speed. But to use your opponents power, you must recognise it. Not only direction, level and speed, but all the system behind it, physically and mentally. That is not true for the kokyunage syllabus, but for all technique, starting and ending with ikkyo.
Does this also satisfy your curiousness, Aristeia?

Regarding O Sensei. He was as mortal as you and me. He dedicated all his life to budo and was extraordinarily talented, so he evolved to one of the best budoka, seen.

He buit up muscles and was very strong and used all his strength in his technique - until he grew older and realised, that he must go beyond strength and changed all his technique.

It is a good idea to go the same way. Maybe the best as then it is YOUR way. Or you can try to learn from others and try to go a more direct path, where you are facing the risk to miss something important. But you might get there earlier. Not me as 2 sessions a week is far too few, unless a miracle happens. But there are other talented people out there, who might find wonderful ways, if not to improve aikdido, but maybe a better way to lead on the path.

The chance might be low, but would have bet a few trillions of years ago, that out of this slimy mud something weird like human beings would evolve?

Dirk

PeterR 08-11-2006 03:22 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?
 
Quote:

Raul Rodrigo wrote:
Kokyu nage is a loose term, true. And in judo, Uki otoshi, the floating drop, (not uki waza, which is a sacrifice throw) is the one that best exemplifies the aiki qualities in judo. The tenth dan Kyuzo Mifune had an absolutely beautiful uki otoshi that any aikido yudansha would be proud to be able to do.

Xuzen was referring to Shodokan Aikido terms not Judo although there are alot of similarity since Tomiki tended to use Judo terms to describe Aikido skills.

The uki waza are called the floating waza and in Shodokan dogma they are considered the highest expression of Aikido. Examples are found in the last three waza of the junanahon (basic 17): mai-otoshi, sumi-otoshi and hiki-otoshi and all three have their parallels in Judo.

I am sure that they could be considered kokyu-nage since they all require a strong sensitiviy to your opponents balance and good timing with relatively little joint manipulation but much of what is called kokyu-waza in other styles seems to be a catch-all for anything that can't be easily classified.

So I disagree with the evil Dr. S. aka the "Unpronouncable One". Like all kihon techniques they can be learnt early and later perfected. What is important is to feel the technique at the hands of an expert and then try and duplicate that feel on your partner. The relationship between feeling and knowing you've got it right or getting closer to that point is pretty strong.

Interestingly when you watch Shodokan Aikido shiai or randori you will more often see variations of the first five techniques (atemi waza) and variations of the last three techniques (uki waza) rather than the other nine. The reason is that once you start to understand the feeling required to effectively take down an opponent these floating waza are truely wonderfully effective.

xuzen 08-11-2006 04:42 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?
 
Quote:

Peter Rehse wrote:
Xuzen was referring to Shodokan Aikido terms not Judo although there are alot of similarity since Tomiki tended to use Judo terms to describe Aikido skills.

The uki waza are called the floating waza and in Shodokan dogma they are considered the highest expression of Aikido. Examples are found in the last three waza of the junanahon (basic 17): mai-otoshi, sumi-otoshi and hiki-otoshi and all three have their parallels in Judo.

I am sure that they could be considered kokyu-nage since they all require a strong sensitiviy to your opponents balance and good timing with relatively little joint manipulation but much of what is called kokyu-waza in other styles seems to be a catch-all for anything that can't be easily classified.

Thanks Peter, you read me like a book. Although I train in Yoshinkan methodology, I find the acadamic explaination and sound pedagogical approach of Kenji Tomiki and Jigaro Kano towards the subject of Jujutsu the best.

Boon.

CitoMaramba 08-11-2006 05:11 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?
 
I find kokyunage to be great for henka waza :)

raul rodrigo 08-11-2006 07:13 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?
 
[quote=Peter Rehse]Xuzen was referring to Shodokan Aikido terms not Judo although there are alot of similarity since Tomiki tended to use Judo terms to describe Aikido skills.



Ah. My bad.



R

PeterR 08-11-2006 07:24 AM

Re: Kokyu Nage techniques do they work?
 
hey no problem

By the by the Judo uki otoshi = Shodokan Aikido hiki-otoshi - both really wonderful variations.


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