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-   -   "super" high ranking yudansha? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10731)

David Racho 08-02-2006 11:10 AM

"super" high ranking yudansha?
 
Hi there,

Is there a list of Yudansha at 8th dan, 9th dan and 10th dan? (Excluding the Doshus, which I've read elsewhere that are equivalent to 10th dan, but at the same time are outside the ranking system. Koichi Tohei at one time referred to Kisshomaru Ueshiba as 8th dan when Koichi Tohei was 9th dan.) - Dead or Alive. If I recall correctly, there are only 2 living 10th dans and 2 living 9th dans, all of which are Japanese and live in Japan.

I understand Koichi Tohei is no longer Aikikai as well as Hitohiro Saito, but both were a part of them, and Tohei is one of the few 10th dans when he was given that rank in 1969. I've also read somewhere that Iwama ryu has been integrated into Aikikai, or more specifically, the dan ranks of Iwama promoted aikidoka are officially recognized by the Aikikai.

Is there a list of just 6th dans Aikikai? and not just women. If it's less than 1000, I'd like to see it. Or if it's too long, maybe categorized by location. I'm pretty sure it's pointless to request for 1st Dans to 5th Dans, unless the Aikikai makes that information public. (Would be nice if they did, through their website, or some sort of verification process.)

I've also read somewhere that Aikikai registers kyu grades, and not just in Japan or Hombu. Imagine what a boon or convenience it would be for someone else to be able to verify your kyu or dan ranking just by putting in your serial number at their web site, as opposed to looking at a card (Aikikai gives a card or book to registered members?)

As an extra, if people have information on how long certain people took to get to these ranks, and how long in between, that would be nice as well. From an informal study it seems that 7th Dans average a total of about 40 years (from 6th kyu or from whenever they started.)

P.S. I've seen the list of high ranking non-japanese yudansha which can be found here http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/nonjapanese , thus the title "super high ranking" for this one.

Jose Garrido 08-02-2006 11:44 AM

Re: "super" high ranking yudansha?
 
David is there any particular reason why you want to gather such a list of Aikidoka. Are you writing a book or setting up an information webpage or anything of this nature?

Jose Garrido

James Kelly 08-02-2006 02:53 PM

Re: "super" high ranking yudansha?
 
As of last year, the certificate number for a 6th dan (Aikikai) was in the mid 600s. Which means that there have been a grand total of 600 something people who've reached that rank. This includes those who've gone on to higher ranks, but I'm pretty sure doesn't include the people who were given 7th and above without going through the 'lower' ranks.

Not what you were asking for exactly, but it's interesting.

DonMagee 08-02-2006 06:55 PM

Re: "super" high ranking yudansha?
 
Sounds like a good project for a wiki. Would make an easy way to list aiki instructors and high ranking aikidoka and their linage.

David Racho 08-02-2006 08:41 PM

Re: "super" high ranking yudansha?
 
My reason is personal. I'm curious. I hope that doesn't kill me.

Another thing is to have an almost authoritative reference. If there are about 600 6th Dans, it would make it easy for aikido newbies to verify that their senseis are "legit".

Now I understand that many many many good instructors are no longer affiliated with Aikikai (and I only mention this because that is the mainline.) And there are several "weird" groups that claim 8th Dan especially where I live (I'm in the Philippines.)

They're not really weird, but you know, it's been mentioned in other threads about these 8th Dans, and it kinda irks me or annoys me. I would not dare confront them about it either as I know they have been practicing aikido before I was born, but to me, that's just not right.

I mean, maybe this kind of thing can be brought up to whoever is an authority in the IAF. USAF lists all their promotions, so it's relatively easy to determine if your Sensei is on that list. (There are no USAF in the Philippines as far as I know; in fact, non outside the United States.)

For example, from what I gather, there is a list of famous aikidoka (in wikipedia), and in the Philippines I've met two of them personally. One is 2nd Dan and never been promoted and broke away from Aikikai, then broke away from that organization (because of politics he said) to start his own association. The other one is at least 4th, maybe 5th, but I can't verify and I don't want to ask him myself, although I know he is currently with Aikikai because he just sponsored a Japanese Shihan to conduct a 2 day seminar.

In this particular case, rank doesn't matter because their history is pretty well known and if you get the chance to train with them they will really help and improve your technique, and all the other 3rd Dans and 4th Dans in the country greatly respect these two.

Now, if it's a privacy issue, well - maybe have a voluntary wiki or database where everyone who has a Dan ranking input their info, willingly.

CitoMaramba 08-03-2006 07:10 AM

Re: "super" high ranking yudansha?
 
Hello David. Kumusta, kabayan! :)
The list of Philippine Aikidoka in wikipedia (as of 3 Aug 2006) is as follows:

Philippines
* Manuel "Omar" Camar
* Chan Hok-seng
* Rolando dela Cruz
* Benjamin Galarpe - The Father of Aikido in the Philippines
* Tadashi Nishiyama
* Ernesto Talag - Head of the Philippine Ki Society
* Max Tian

From these names, I can see only one that fits your first description and none that fits your second description. Maybe you were referring to an earlier list?

As for me, I'm fortunate to have had a Filipino who is ranked 6th Dan by the Aikikai as my Sensei. I have seen his rank certificate (no, it was not bought in Recto :) ) Plus, he hosted the visit of Masatake Fujita Shihan (8th Dan Aikikai) to the Philippines.

David Racho 08-03-2006 07:45 AM

Re: "super" high ranking yudansha?
 
Hi Cito!. Kamusta! So what are you doing there and are you coming back to the P.I.?

Anyway,

The first one I mentioned is indeed in that list, and I have it from first hand knowledge (I had lunch with him, he told me) that he has officially resigned from Ki Society (Ki no Kenkyukai) of Koichi Tohei a couple of years ago. His group is now called Ki Association International. So at this point his rank becomes sort of irrelevant as neither Aikikai or Ki Society will recognize it. Basically he's stuck at nidan.

The other one is not there, although in a similar looking list he is (in between Rolando dela Cruz and Benjamin Galarpe). He also was (or is) with the 6th Dan you mentioned, primarily because of Nishio Sensei and the Iaido part. There's only one (1) 6th Dan Filipino as far as I know. The recent seminar I was referring to was the Takemori Sensei (7th Dan Aikikai) seminar which had Iaido and taijutsu classes. Takemori will return to the Philippines next year.

Yes, you are most fortunate to have had a Sensei, I plan on visiting one of these days when I venture up north to Pangasinan.

Aikilove 08-03-2006 07:50 AM

Re: "super" high ranking yudansha?
 
As of 2005 there are (aikikai) over 186 000 1dan, 42 000 2dan, 16 000 3dan, 7 500 4dan, 3 400 5dan, 1500 6dan, 363 7 dan and 73 8dan.

/J

David Racho 08-03-2006 08:39 AM

Re: "super" high ranking yudansha?
 
Neato. Where did you get those numbers? I've read somewhere that Aikikai will not be awarding 9th dans anymore to living people, but I've also read a conflicting rumor about someone being promoted to 9th dan (a senior of Yoshimitsu Yamada I think.)

grondahl 08-03-2006 08:55 AM

Re: "super" high ranking yudansha?
 
Yamada wrote an article that was published online that Tamura had declined a promotion to 9 dan.

I think that Jakob got the numbers from the homepage of Swedish Aikikai, www.aikikai.net. Hovewer I think it´s only in swedish.

Dazzler 08-03-2006 09:14 AM

Re: "super" high ranking yudansha?
 
Quote:

Peter Gröndahl wrote:
Yamada wrote an article that was published online that Tamura had declined a promotion to 9 dan.

I think that Jakob got the numbers from the homepage of Swedish Aikikai, www.aikikai.net. Hovewer I think it´s only in swedish.

I have heard this too, but didn't know that there was an article on it.

Anyone got a link to it? I'd be interested in the thoughts around this.

Cheers

D

David Racho 08-03-2006 09:35 AM

Re: "super" high ranking yudansha?
 
I found it. hehehe. http://www.aikikai.net/dan/index.html

Quote:

Här är det ungefärliga antalet personer som erhållit de olika dangraderna i Aikikai (2005):

1. shodan 186.000
2. nidan 42.000
3. sandan 16.000
4. yondan 7.500
5. godan 3.400
6. rokudan 1.500
7. nanadan 363
8. hachidan 73
9. kudan ingen uppgift
10. yudan ingen uppgift
I don't understand the text, but I can read numbers. Now if there was only a way to show the names...

Here's the article about Tamura.

http://www.aikidoeast.com/aikidoeast/2006/1/index.shtml

Quote:

For example, Tamura Sensei was 4th dan when I started aikido and now both of us have the same rank. And it's obvious to everybody, including myself, that there is a big difference between he and I. By the way, Tamura Sensei was recently promoted to 9th dan but he humbly refused it. I feel like I should have refused my 8th dan promotion.

Dazzler 08-03-2006 09:58 AM

Re: "super" high ranking yudansha?
 
Thanks David.

James Kelly 08-03-2006 05:48 PM

Re: "super" high ranking yudansha?
 
Quote:

David Racho wrote:

Anyone know where they got their numbers? Are they cumulative? They don't jibe with the certificate numbers I've seen recently. Maybe Honbu is reusing certificate numbers (which would be out of character I think). Or the reset back to zero at some point.

David Yap 08-03-2006 10:56 PM

Re: "super" high ranking yudansha?
 
Quote:

David Racho wrote:
I don't understand the text, but I can read numbers. Now if there was only a way to show the names...

Hi David R,
These numbers, if correct, show the cumulative total of certificates issued for each rank as of 2005. Based on these numbers, the total number of Aikikai yudansha would be 136,547 as follows:

Shodan - 115,164
Nidan - 13,164
Sandan - 3,164
Yondan - 2,164
Godan - 1,464
Rokudan - 1,064
Nanadan - 290
Hachidan - 73

A small number of the 73 8th dans would have received the 9th dan or 10th dan (K Tohei, G Shioda, K Sunadomari, M Hikitsuchi, R Shirata, M Saito, S Okumura and H Tada, etc.).

Assuming that there are 1.5 million Aikikai practitioners, only 9.1% are yudansha.

FWIW,

David Y

grondahl 08-04-2006 12:32 AM

Re: "super" high ranking yudansha?
 
The site were designed and put to life by Stefan Stenudd (Aikikai 6 Dan) and Sture Nöjd (Aikikai 2dan).

I suggest contacting them for info, I´m sure Sture lurks around here and Stefan was a posting member here on aikiweb some time ago, otherwise you can contact him via www.stenudd.com or maybe through his email stenudd@aikido-international.org (He´s a member of the IAF Directing Comittee)

David Yap 08-04-2006 12:57 AM

Re: "super" high ranking yudansha?
 
Hi David R,

I forgot to include that the above "stats" are based on the following assumptions:

1. Everyone starts from shodan
2. No one skips ranks
3. Every yudansha is issued with a certificate for every rank taken.
4. Everyone given the ranks are still living (not possible) :p

Cheers

David Y

PS. Only if Aikikai Hombu has an established databank assessible via the Net, then, you can put the names behind the numbers :D

Aikilove 08-04-2006 04:21 AM

Re: "super" high ranking yudansha?
 
Mr Yap, where do you get the number 115 000 from? Is that the most resent shodan register number you know of? or have you asked hombu dojo about it?

/J

David Yap 08-04-2006 07:08 AM

Re: "super" high ranking yudansha?
 
Quote:

Jakob Blomquist wrote:
Mr Yap, where do you get the number 115 000 from? Is that the most resent shodan register number you know of? or have you asked hombu dojo about it.

Hi Jakob,
Thanks for the question. The numbers are based on mathematical calculation and assumptions. Since you asked, I realized the equations are not right. So let's re-work them again here:

186,000 shodan certificates and 42,000 nidan certificates issued, assuming all 42,000 nidans were promoted from shodan, then 144,000 shodanswere not promoted.
16,000 sandan certificates were issued, that leaves 26,000 nidans not promoted.
7,500 yondan certificates were issued, that leaves 8,500 sandans not promoted.
3,400 godan certificates were issued, that leaves 4,100 yondans not promoted.
1,500 rokudan certificates were issued, that leaves 1,900 godans not promoted.
363 nanadan certificates were issued, that leaves 1,137 rokudans not promoted.
And finally, 73 hachidan certificates were issued, that leaves 290 nanadans not promoted. (As I've said, some of the hachidans would been promoted to kudan & judan)

The total number of people who have been issued Aikikai yudansha certificates is 186,000. Again, let me stress that these numbers are guesstimates based on the above assumptions. :D Some of the people who were "not promoted" might gone over to other schools, i.e. Yoshinkan, Ki Aikido, Tomiki, etc.

Again, FWIW

David Y

Aikilove 08-05-2006 04:34 PM

Re: "super" high ranking yudansha?
 
Jepp! I figured there was a reason why I didn't get the same result as your first number crunching...
The last post is correct according to my mathbook as well.

Cheers!

jerie castro 08-05-2006 05:28 PM

Re: about Sensai "Omar" Camar
 
Quote:

Cito Maramba wrote:
Hello David. Kumusta, kabayan! :)
The list of Philippine Aikidoka in wikipedia (as of 3 Aug 2006) is as follows:

Philippines
* Manuel "Omar" Camar
* Chan Hok-seng
* Rolando dela Cruz
* Benjamin Galarpe - The Father of Aikido in the Philippines
* Tadashi Nishiyama
* Ernesto Talag - Head of the Philippine Ki Society
* Max Tian

From these names, I can see only one that fits your first description and none that fits your second description. Maybe you were referring to an earlier list?

As for me, I'm fortunate to have had a Filipino who is ranked 6th Dan by the Aikikai as my Sensei. I have seen his rank certificate (no, it was not bought in Recto :) ) Plus, he hosted the visit of Masatake Fujita Shihan (8th Dan Aikikai) to the Philippines.

:) Gud AM! Ok lang po ba kayo natawagin ko po kyo na sensei? I'm only a beginner in aikido (a four days old in training), i've just read that you mentioned the name of Sensai "Omar" Camar, is he a good sensai?

CitoMaramba 08-06-2006 03:43 PM

Re: "super" high ranking yudansha?
 
Kabayan Jerie,
Tawagin mo na lang akong "Cito". I have never met Camar Sensei, so I'm not qualified to comment on him. Some people who have met him, expressed their opinions in a thread here on Aikiweb. Just click on the URL below to read the thread,

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9876

Hope this helps.

Cito

CitoMaramba 08-08-2006 01:00 AM

Re: "super" high ranking yudansha?
 
Quote:

David Racho wrote:
Hi Cito!. Kamusta! So what are you doing there and are you coming back to the P.I.?

Work-related, David. Will be back in the PH to visit from time to time.
Have we met? I suspect we have, so please confirm my suspicion :)

Yes, I know now both of the Sensei you mentioned, and have met them personally as well. The second sensei was last officially ranked as sandan, AFAIK.
Maraming salamat po!

Cito

David Racho 08-09-2006 10:47 AM

Re: "super" high ranking yudansha?
 
Hi Cito,

I don't think we have met up close and personal. But if my information is correct, you're either a doctor or in the medical field. I've only heard second hand gossip, so I won't really count them as reliable. I think you did once train with the second sensei. hehehe. Other than that, no, I don't think we have met. I deal with people who know you though, so maybe one of these days (don't misinterpret; I won't make it a priority) we'll get introduced. What I mean is, if it happens.

At least one of my friends claims to be your senior under the second sensei. It's quite hard to verify since that particular sensei seems to be running out of students. He seems to be quite friendlier now and manages to retain a couple of yudansha. The rest left, curiously enough.

I like to be friends with everyone, so.. you know, I don't really like the politics in the Philippines. Government and Aikido. I'll learn from both sensei if I can, but I won't tell one about my involvement with the other (let them figure it out if they can, usually by the way you move. Maybe)

mriehle 08-09-2006 11:30 AM

Re: "super" high ranking yudansha?
 
I haven't read the entire thread, but the idea of having an online list of yudansha is not new. It seems like it would fit nicely into the Aikiweb Wiki.

Certainly, you'd want to start from the top down, if only because there are a whole lot fewer judans than there are shodans. In a perfect world the ranks would include information on who awarded the rank, etc.

But...

It's a lot of work. Is it really worth it?

Maybe.

I'm not entirely convinced.


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