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-   -   Ki vs Aikikai (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106)

Kristina Morris 07-12-2000 01:45 PM

My question is for Jun, but anyone who is experienced in statistical data might lend an opinion as well. I was reading the various poll results and I found it interesting that on this forum (thus far) the larger number of folks who practiced Aikido did so in an Aikikai dojo (54%) out of 618 votes. Then I looked at how many people believe in Ki. Out of 536 votes, 92% believed in Ki.
Does this mean that the majority of people who train in Aikikai believe in Ki even though it is not necessarily taught in the dojo? Or, can a person vote more than once, thus throwing off the poll? Or, do the majority of folks on this forum believe in the existence of Ki whether they train in Aikido or not?
Is there another way these polls can be compiled?

Kristina

dbgard 07-12-2000 03:21 PM

Whoa wait a second
 
what is this ki vs. aikikai stuff?

You've already discarded the very essence of aikido in this title. The versus already surrenders that there must be conflict between the two. The WHOLE POINT IS that what an aikidoka hopes to attain is a sense of complete inner-peace and to find his or her proper place in this world. Shouldn't it say ki sv. aikikai (ki saves the aikikai?)

I'm sure Mr. Akiyama-san will have more subtantial comments in response to your thread, but don't forget the basics!!

--- Drew ---

BC 07-12-2000 03:34 PM

I practice in an Aikikai dojo, and I can tell you that at least in our dojo, we do talk about using and developing ki, we just don't train for the specific stated purpose of developing ki. We train in aikido in order to improve ourselves as human beings. From what I understand, part of this process over time leads to among other things, the development and awareness of ki, mind/body unification, martial ability, awareness, physical and mental fitness, etc. (I understand these things aren't independent from each other). I know very little about ki-aikido, but my best understanding of the differences between the two styles is mainly that in ki-aikido, one of the primary goals is the direct development of ki through various specific exercies and aikido techniques, whereas in the Aikikai, the development of ki happens as more of an indirect result of the practice of aikido over time. Anyway, that's my two cents worth. IMHO

Kristina Morris 07-12-2000 04:00 PM

Ki vs Aikikai
 
Well, maybe a better subject line would have been Ki vs Aikikai Statistics.
Not _even_ interested in a Ki War or the various Aikikai dojos that might address the teaching of Ki in the kyu ranks and above. I am interested in how the statistics of the polls play out. I also noticed that the poll asking what type of dojos people trained in (Affiliation) shows the 2nd largest number coming from independent dojos.
What I am suggesting(according to the Poll) is that on this AikiWeb Forum, the majority of subscribers are Aikikai students who believe in the existence of Ki. Or, if you look at the statistics from another viewpoint - the remaining 46% of subscribers from the other Aikido organizations repesent the Ki believers.

I'm not disputing whether Ki is taught or not. I am questioning and showing an interest in how the statistics play out. I find the Polls to be one of the 1st areas I look at on this forum. The questions are good and the results are surprising.

Kristina

BC 07-12-2000 04:23 PM

Sorry, I guess I didn't get my point across. Basically, I believe that most Aikikai student DO believe in ki in one way or another. I don't understand why you are surprised that so many Aikikai practitioners would believe in ki. After all, ki IS the middle word in the name of the art. In fact most martial artists that I know in both aikido and other arts, believe in ki or chi. To me, the results are not surprising at all, but rather confirm my own perceptions about ki and the martial arts.

Kristina Morris 07-12-2000 04:32 PM

Ki vs Aikikai
 
I am surprised because after being on the Aikido-L for a few years, I found the opposite to be true in the infamous Ki Wars. (Don't even want to go down that road!) "Ki" got quite a bashing. Personally, I am one of those independent dojo Ki-believer types.

Kristina

DJM 07-12-2000 04:51 PM

Kristina,
I'm currently studying Tomiki style (AKA Shodokan everywhere but the UK) Aikido, and have studied Aikikai in the past. What I get from that, and from discussion on e-budo and elsewhere, is that most Aikidoka believe in ki. Perhaps because it's so undefined in general usage. The only divisions I've seen are when you try to define ki, into spiritual energy vs mind/body coordination type things..
People forget that there's no difference between the two - it's all One... (I'm Taoist, so that's my slant on things! ;))
Peace,
David

dbgard 07-12-2000 09:07 PM

ki is so obvious, what's the big struggle?
 
Here's my little imagination of ki...


Take everything we have ever learned in the sciences, from physics to chemistry and beyond, add in what we have not yet learned...and BINGO there it is, KI !!! It was so elusive because it was too easy to understand. I hope this didn't really disappoint anyone.

Love,
Drew

akiy 07-12-2000 10:54 PM

Quote:

Kristina Morris wrote:
Does this mean that the majority of people who train in Aikikai believe in Ki even though it is not necessarily taught in the dojo?

Probably. I've been to quite a number of Aikikai dojo in which people talked openly about "ki."

I don't think that "Aikikai" necessarily means that the dojo is a "non-ki" dojo.
Quote:

Or, can a person vote more than once, thus throwing off the poll?

I'm hoping that's not the case. I do have a simple check to try to keep this from happening...

Quote:

Or, do the majority of folks on this forum believe in the existence of Ki whether they train in Aikido or not?

Maybe...

Quote:

Is there another way these polls can be compiled?

Perhaps. I could do a more "in-depth" survey rather than the simplistic poll on the front page. It might be interesting, huh?

-- Jun

Guest5678 07-13-2000 10:50 AM

Survey......
 
akiy,

To extend the poll, an even more interesting follow up question would be if they believe in Ki then what is Ki to them?, and If they don't believe in Ki , why not?. ............ that would prove interesting indeed......

Regards,

Mongo

dbgard 07-13-2000 11:29 AM

Akiyama-san
 
Quote:

akiy wrote:
[QUOTE
Quote:

Is there another way these polls can be compiled?

Perhaps. I could do a more "in-depth" survey rather than the simplistic poll on the front page. It might be interesting, huh?

-- Jun

Dear Jun,

This thread/forum idea is the "more in-depth survey," is it not? I like the current set-up here, but you're the boss !!

Peace, Love, and KIAIIII,
Dr. Drew Gardner
El Presidente y CEO
Jeronimo Bukutaiwaza Oshikko Goika no Masago
Beijing, Nippon

Sid 07-13-2000 12:50 PM

Re: Akiyama-san
 
From what i understand, you are saying aikikai dont believe in ki.

But ki is central to ALL aikido, so how does that work?

sid


Kristina Morris 07-13-2000 01:12 PM



Thanks, Jun. You answered my questions. I hope no one votes more than once otherwise the statistics will be very misleading.

Kristina

Nick 07-13-2000 01:29 PM

Just because one does not actively practice ki does not they don't have it or believe in it.

Just because one does not go to church/temple/whatever else doesn't mean they don't have faith or don't believe in something.

-Nick

akiy 07-13-2000 02:25 PM

Re: Re: Akiyama-san
 
Quote:

Sid wrote:
From what i understand, you are saying aikikai dont believe in ki.
No, what I said was "I don't think that "Aikikai" necessarily means that the dojo is a "non-ki" dojo."

Therefore in my experience, not all Aikikai dojo believe in nor talk about "ki." Not all Aikikai dojo believe that "ki" does not exist.
Quote:

But ki is central to ALL aikido, so how does that work?
Not to start a Ki War here, but I'll say that not everyone I've met believes that the notion of "ki" is a necessity in learning and/or applying aikido.

-- Jun

DJM 07-13-2000 03:42 PM

Re: Re: Re: Akiyama-san
 
Quote:

akiy wrote:
Not to start a Ki War here, but I'll say that not everyone I've met believes that the notion of "ki" is a necessity in learning and/or applying aikido.

-- Jun

How about acknowledging that while it's not necessarily needed for learning/applying Aikido, it turns up all on it's own anyway with dedicated practice...
;)

Peace,
David

akiy 07-13-2000 03:51 PM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Akiyama-san
 
Quote:

DJM wrote:How about acknowledging that while it's not necessarily needed for learning/applying Aikido, it turns up all on it's own anyway with dedicated practice...
;)[/b]
I'll acknowledge that some people would agree with that and others wouldn't...

-- Jun

George S. Ledyard 07-13-2000 06:04 PM

What?
 
I will confess to not getting this discussion. What is this about "believing in Ki or not believing in Ki"? I definitely don't get what is meant by "teaching Ki" or not.

That's like saying "I teach Water" in my style of Aikido. Or "That teacher doesn't beleive in Air". These are verbal appelations for symbolic referance to different types energies. These are not "things that are known or not known", you don't learn Ki nor do you teach Ki.

If you mean by this discussion that some teachers prefer to describe technique in terms of the physical principles of technique such as the geometry, balance points, principles of joint locking etc. and other teachers prefer to use the symbolic representation of the five elements and their myriad energetic combinations I would say that was true. Certainly there styles of Aikido which place emphasis on learning "Ki exercises". These are meant to develop the balanced flow of that type of energy in the body and enhance an awareness of that energy. You could even go so far as to say that Ki exercises can foster an awareness of the connection between the Ki of the individual and Universal Ki. But it is the exercises that are taught not the thing itself. "Belief" in Ki or "disbelief" in Ki is a misnomer.

That said there is a debate within Aikido circles over what emphasis should be placed on the element of Ki in the practice. One extreme would be Koichi Tohei Sensei's style of Aikido which goes so far as to grant separate ranking in technique and ki development. The other side of the coin would be represented by Kuroiwa Sensei who felt that too much emphasis on Ki made people neglect their understanding of the fundamentals of technique in favor of some "magical" energy which would make their technique work despite their lack of fundamentals.

The vast majority of Aikidoka fall somewhere in between these viewpoints and that includes Aikikai folks.

Keith 07-13-2000 08:26 PM

Re: Ki vs Aikikai
 
Quote:

Kristina Morris wrote:
I am surprised because after being on the Aikido-L for a few years, I found the opposite to be true in the infamous Ki Wars.
Perhaps the sample of posters on Aikido-L is not representative of Aikidoists in general. Just speculating here, but the internet has only recently been generally popular. So perhaps most Aikido-L types are experienced technology users with little patience for less tangible ideas. Or perhaps people who don't "believe in" ki are more likely to feel the need to argue the point than those that do. Or perhaps this site is not a representative sample of Aikidoists. Or perhaps neither Aikido-L nor Aikiweb are representative of the Aikido world at large. Keep in mind that when people come to you, they are not likely to be a statistacally representative sample. If you want to survey people about their beliefs concerning ki, you have to go them randomly to insure a truly random and therefor statistically relevant sample.

Or maybe we've all gotten together to mess with your head.
Keith

BC 07-14-2000 08:58 AM

I like Koichi Tohei's statement in an interview I read once:

"If you think you can feel ki, go see a doctor."

-BC


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