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wayneth 06-26-2006 05:03 AM

literal translation of techniques?
 
Hi

After a session last week where we studied Udekime-Nage, Udegarami-Nage and Kata-Gatame, I left wondering what the translation of these techniques were.
During the session I asked my Sensei but he could not give the definite translation, only giving vague answers to what they could be called.
I would be grateful if somebody could help with this, as it would be a great help into the understanding if the techniques.

Thanks, Wayne

alex padilla 06-26-2006 07:09 AM

Re: literal translation of techniques?
 
hi Wayne,
There are many different Aikido organizations, and with all the differences the name of the techniques vary. Udekime nage and udegarami sometimes interchange in Aikido dojo, also some dojos don't have udekime or udegarami. Kata-gatame on the otherhand I don't think exist in most dojos, it is a judo technique and so thus udegarami generally. But, I will take a crack at the name nonetheless:

Udekime - figure-four armlock, that looks like a Shiho-nage except that nage and uke's inside arm touches and your holding your own wrist while ukes elbow is bent. If it is a right punch you go to the outside and hold his right by your right hand from the outside, after securing right wrist by right hand you grab your own wrist by your left then bend the elbow to ukes back.

Udegarami - Kaiten-nage position except that you are locking his arm in figure-four position. If mune-tsuki apply kaiten by having your left hand hold his right arm then reaching your left wrist by your right from the back of uke while elbow is bended, the uke can then go straight to the ground while you are locking his elbow and shoulder.
This technique works better in grappling position when your opponent is pinned to the ground while you are applying the lock to the 90 degree bent of his arm.

Kata gatame - is pinning the persons arm close to his face while your smothering him by your arm in-front of him like doing the triangle choke by the arms, your heads are almost back to back. This is actually a pin and submission hold. I have seen this perform as a throw by ninjutsu guys and in grappling as a pin or choke but never in Aikido.

I hope that I made some things clear or maybe I muddled things up, anyway thats the way I see it.
Let's hear from other guys.

happysod 06-26-2006 10:22 AM

Re: literal translation of techniques?
 
Quote:

I would be grateful if somebody could help with this, as it would be a great help into the understanding if the techniques
Hate to disagree, but getting hung up on the translation won't help. You'd probably be better off at the start with just a mental map of dojonese to technique with your own unique take on it (e.g. nikyo = x where x = ouchy one with pinky on top towards elbow, not to be confused with the other kotegaeshit-let go the bloody wrist one). I really think less is more. Not only will the names change across dojos (and become really weird thanks to various dialects), but just when you think you've got it, someone very good will do something, you'll ask what it was and you'll then be told "dunno, it just fit the attack.." - smug sods that they are.

wayneth 06-26-2006 10:46 AM

Re: literal translation of techniques?
 
Hi
Thanks to both of you guys for your help. But my looking on your replies has led me to believe that you have misinterpreted the question (sorry if this is not the case!)
I already have a very basic idea on how the techniques are performed, already training for over 2 years (still a beginner!!). But what I am looking for is what the techniques Japanese names translate to into English.
If I am right from what my Sensei has told us is that Katagatame is a technique that Chiba Kazuo Sensei had originated in the period he was in Britain in the 1960s to 70s. Maybe someone can correct me on this one.
I find that the proper naming of a technique can help in the understanding of a technique. For example Ikkyo and Ikkajo are the names that are used in the Aikikai and Yoshinkan syllabuses. However Kanetsuka Minoru Sensei has stated that their original names were that of Ude Osae meaning Arm Pin, which is a better understanding to a beginner compared to the translation to 1st Principle.
Thanks for your replies and keep on giving all information you can please.
Wayne

Mark Freeman 06-26-2006 11:22 AM

Re: literal translation of techniques?
 
Wayne,

here is my mini translation of the techniques I know ( i'm afraid the ones you mention I don't know by name but may have seen them ).
Ikkyo 1st principle
Nikkyo 2nd priciple
Sankyo 3rd principle
Yonkyo 4th principle
Shihonage All/four direction throw
Kokyunage Breath throw
Kaitenage ( I have no english for this one I just know how to do it )
Tenchenage Heaven and earth throw
Kotagaishe Wrist turn out throw

Just my own understanding, I would be interested to read others take on the one's I've mentioned.

I agree with Ian though, use your own system for remembering the techniques. In the early days I thought I 'knew' a technique, but time has shown me that thinking you know something and actually understanding it may be along way apart. ;)

regards,

Mark

wayneth 06-26-2006 11:53 AM

Re: literal translation of techniques?
 
Thanks 4 those Mark.
Kaiten Nage translation is Rotary Throw or its along those lines.

Udekime Nage, UdeGarami Nage and Kata Gatame, as i believe are not basic techniques, which is probably why people don't really now or hear of it (I mite be wrong here). Yoshinkan practitioners will now of Udekime Nage as being Hiji-Ate Kokyu-Nage, which will probably help in people messaging from other styles of Aikido as well.
Wayne

odudog 06-26-2006 01:15 PM

Re: literal translation of techniques?
 
I believe I can shed some light on this subject. I am in the process of doing the same thing.
Kime = knudge, tap, a slight push
Garami = to entangle, to wrap, entwine {think of snakes making love}
Kaiten = rotary {hence kaitensushi = sushi placed on a convayer belt that goes around and 'round}
Kote = one's wrist
Gaeshi = to return {kotegaeshi = returning some else's wrist}
Hiji = elbow
Ate = I think this is just short for atemi
Kyo = teaching {there are some other words to describe this like "demonstration" etc.. but my mind is just blank right now}
Shi = 4
Ho = direction

wayneth 06-27-2006 01:16 AM

Re: literal translation of techniques?
 
Thanks Mike, help was derived from that information.
Anybody else willing to provide any information into the translation of those 3 techniques, being the practitioner from a Aikikai, Yoshinkan or Tomiki background; it will all help.

Wayne

alex padilla 06-27-2006 07:10 AM

Re: literal translation of techniques?
 
Ude Garami - Arm Wrap (Kansetsu Waza)

Ude Kime - Arm Bend (Kansetsu Waza)
Kime is bending the joint more than its natural bend,
hyperbending as in Kote Gaeshi.

Kata Gatame -Shoulder Pin (Osae Waza)
Gatame or Tatame a pin hold from Ne Waza
Nage is Throw.

wayneth 06-30-2006 09:16 AM

Re: literal translation of techniques?
 
Thanks Alex, I think I understand it now.
Still although I might understand their translations, I think there's another few more decades before I begin to understand how to do the techniques.
Wayne


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