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-   -   What do you think? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10502)

Mark Freeman 06-15-2006 06:30 PM

What do you think?
 
I came across this clip and enjoyed it so much, I'd just like to see if you agree with me that is a fine demonstration of the beautiful art of aikido.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df761...&search=Aikido

What do you think? is it the aikido you aspire to, or is it not 'martial' or 'realistic' enough for your taste?

Just curious ;)

regards,

Mark

Nick P. 06-15-2006 07:42 PM

Re: What do you think?
 
That was awesome.
Sure, to a degree it was choreographed (at least I hope so; otherwise that might have been the cleanest jyu-waza I will ever live to see), but there was an awful lot of energy and solid technique in there.
Wow. Good find.

crbateman 06-15-2006 09:29 PM

Re: What do you think?
 
Go see them in person... That's Phong Sensei's dojo in Westminster (O.C.), CA.

NagaBaba 06-15-2006 09:51 PM

Re: What do you think?
 
Quote:

Mark Freeman wrote:
What do you think?
Mark

This video has nothing to do with aikido. It is empty shell. Or healthy gymnastic if you will.

xuzen 06-15-2006 10:27 PM

Re: What do you think?
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
This video has nothing to do with aikido. It is empty shell. Or healthy gymnastic if you will.

Szczepan,

How did you come out with this conclusion? Just curious? I need to know how your brain works, I need to know....

Boon.

statisticool 06-15-2006 10:38 PM

Re: What do you think?
 
There's something heart-warming about watching martial arts and people clapping at skill and techniques and have all martial artists involved unharmed at the end, rather than people clapping for skill and have martial artists bloodied, injured, or choked unconscious. A much different energy; nice video!

xuzen 06-16-2006 02:53 AM

Re: What do you think?
 
No matter how pretty the jiyu-waza is... it ain't aikido if there isn't at least a SHOMEN-ATE (TM) in it... OK OK, I am just kidding. :D

Boon.

Mark Freeman 06-16-2006 03:02 AM

Re: What do you think?
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
This video has nothing to do with aikido. It is empty shell. Or healthy gymnastic if you will.

That's about as blatant and narrow minded a put down as one could imagine. But one that obviously exists in the world of aikido. :(

Perhaps Szczepan, you could explain why this video has 'nothing to do with aikido'.

Even more curious

regards

Mark

Mark Freeman 06-16-2006 03:04 AM

Re: What do you think?
 
Quote:

Clark Bateman wrote:
Go see them in person... That's Phong Sensei's dojo in Westminster (O.C.), CA.

Thanks Clark,

respect to Phong Sensei and his students.

BTW, what did you think of the clip?

regards,

Mark

Pauliina Lievonen 06-16-2006 05:55 AM

Re: What do you think?
 
It was very pretty. But I did wonder whether the ukes were actually out of balance somewhere along the way?

kvaak
Pauliina

crbateman 06-16-2006 06:27 AM

Re: What do you think?
 
Quote:

Mark Freeman wrote:
Thanks Clark,

respect to Phong Sensei and his students.

BTW, what did you think of the clip?

regards,

Mark

Good clip. Scripted for demonstration purposes, methinks, but well paced and impressive to watch. Phong Sensei is a humble but impressive teacher, and his students are NUTS about him. Good show.

MikeLogan 06-16-2006 07:47 AM

Re: What do you think?
 
Quote:

The Un-Pronouncible One wrote:
This video has nothing to do with aikido. It is empty shell. Or healthy gymnastic if you will.

Even if it has been mostly/partly choreographed, and even if I was only uke the whole time (all 3 of them traded places as nage, by the way), I would have trouble keeping that pace and remembering where, how, and who I was going to attack. That the technique was so crisp and even throughout the demonstration shows how much what they do know has stuck solidly in their minds, muscles and mettle.

</sidetrack>
My brother's girlfriend is about 30, she grew up in Poland, and when she was young she and her friends would pool together small coins to the point that they could afford sauerkraut. A mushy, quickly soddening bag of sauerkraut. Each of these intrepid entreupeners would collect roughly more than a handful from this bag, and they would eat it gleefully. It was their candy. Sauerkruat.
</end sidetrack>

Now unless you come from some hard-bitten, wild deadly north like the afore-mentioned, Mr Janczuk, why have you got to be such a wet rag all the time?


Aside from all that, is this not the sensei that the esteemed Dr. Seiser trains with? Hate to say it but that lends some serious street cred, to boot.

michael.

Ron Tisdale 06-16-2006 08:31 AM

Re: What do you think?
 
I enjoyed the clip. I thought there was a lot of grace and power, that the participants had trained hard, and that the throws demonstrated a wide variety of aikido waza. Iriminage, shihonage, kotegaeshi nage, hijiate kokyunage, kaiten nage, koshinage, some nice kokyu nage duck under and entering throws, ushiro waza...Pretty much the entire basic syllabus of aikido waza. There was also a good combination of aikido variations displayed in the clip. Kaeshiwaza, oyo waza, and pretty good basics through out were displayed. No suwari waza...but audiences tend not to really get suwari waza...so for a demonstration of aikido I thought it was very complete.

Overall, I thought the participants were a little light on their feet at some points, and that the kuzushi on some throws was not there. The opening shihonage kuzushi was dependant on a complete lock of the arm, which did not seem to be there...uke was taking a fall (and that happens for all of us occasionally at least). The next sumi otoshi was begun well, but shite turned so quickly for the next uke, it seemed as though there was no real zanshin or completion to the throw. But I have to contrast that with some of the kokyu nage done as entering throws, where you could see the power of the throws clearly. The uke in these throws were clearly being thrown in a direction where they could not provide the power or distance. The same for the koshinage and the duck under throws.

A few of the attacks were not on target, and at times I wondered about the close ma ai. But these seemed to be rather small women in the demonstration, so their ma ai would of necessity be smaller to what I might find comfortable if I were doing jiyu waza with say, Mr. S. ;) Zanshin is extremely hard to demonstrate in a 3 person jiyu waza where kaeshi waza is taking place. To keep the speed reasonable, you are forced to move quickly to the next uke, especially since the waza seemed to be chosen to be representative of a wide corpus of aikido. In a more "realistic" portrayal of a 3 person randori, I would personally never have time for many of the throws if the uke were 'out to get me'. But I don't think that was the purpose of this demonstration as shown by my comments above, so I didn't really expect to see that.

Overall, I personally would like to see a lower center, better attacks, more zanshin, less bounciness. But I'm not sure I could do as well in portraying a picture of the aikido corpus under the same conditions. And if these ladies were between 1st and 3rd dan, I'm not sure we should expect any more from such a demonstration. Frankly, if I were a teacher, I'd be pretty darn proud of them and the efforts they displayed. I believe there is room in aikido for just this sort of demonstration...it is rewarding to the onlookers from outside of aikido, the dojo, and the participants. There are times for different types of demonstrations as well.

Best,
Ron

Alec Corper 06-16-2006 10:05 AM

Re: What do you think?
 
Very nice demonstration, very pretty, flowing Aikido-like movement, but, so sorry, have to agree with Nagababa, I can't see one real attack, the ukes appear to be most committed to taking good ukemi, their centres are floating throughout the approach, and there is plenty of room for kaeshiwaza in almost every technique. Horses for courses, it's still a great demo of training results, I'm just not sure if it's Budo.

Ron Tisdale 06-16-2006 10:07 AM

Re: What do you think?
 
Hi Alec,

I see you mention some of the same things on the minus side that I do...but I have one question.

Is Budo the finished result, or the path along the way?

Best,
Ron

crbateman 06-16-2006 10:10 AM

Re: What do you think?
 
Quote:

Mike Logan wrote:
Aside from all that, is this not the sensei that the esteemed Dr. Seiser trains with? Hate to say it but that lends some serious street cred, to boot.

Yes Michael, it is. Not only is he nuts about Aikido and Phong Sensei, he's also just plain nuts... :D

Mark Freeman 06-16-2006 10:28 AM

Re: What do you think?
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:
Is Budo the finished result, or the path along the way?

Good question Ron, also, I enjoyed your balanced assessment of the clip, thanks.

Obviously we see what we see through our own eyes, but this is filtered through our own experience. I knew when I posted the clip that some would not see it as I did. Which is fine, aikido is not a defined set of techniques to be practiced in exactly the same way by all. It is the principles that are important. If they are present it 'is' aikido whether you like what you see or not.

It is easy for us all to be armchair critics, we seem to revel in it :(

For those that like their aikido 'hard' I can see why they would find fault in what they saw. For those that like their aikido 'soft' I see little to be negative about.

I just enjoyed the spirit of the demo and the poise shown by the 3 women. Maybe, this was because I had just watched a clip of a high ranking aikidoka's demonstration at a big seminar which I wasn't that impressed with ( for me too 'clunky', not much finess and not much control of the ukes 'in advance of contact' ). But as I said it is easy to criticise.

regards,

Mark

Alec Corper 06-16-2006 12:30 PM

Re: What do you think?
 
Hi Ron,
Budo is a path, no end result, but it is in the manner of walking that determines it's truth.
How's that for philo-babble? I don't have a problem with this, I've already expressed it many times, Aikido is neither hard or soft, these are pointless terms, but it should be grounded, focussed and martial in "spirit". This looked graceful and athletic, but I've seen too much of this lately. I believe this is the result of endless public relations exercises within Japan that is gradually spreading world wide. I was at the IAF congress in Tokyo in 2004, some of the demos looked very similar, polished and pretty, some to the point of being dance form. OK, if that's what people want, just not for me.
Alec

Ron Tisdale 06-16-2006 12:43 PM

Re: What do you think?
 
So are you saying that the path they are on cannot lead to the destination you describe?

One of the many problems in my own waza that I've been working on is a feeling of connection to my partner, whether shite or uke. I see that connection being very tennuous in parts of that clip, but very strong (the step in throw / kokyu nage waza) in others.

I've kind of made this thread a challenge for myself...I want to be honest about my reactions, and yet willing to change my opinion if I see compelling arguements. So far, almost all the elements I've found fault with in one place, I've also seen done fairly well in another. The biggest flaw (if I may use that word) would be in the nature of the attacks (I'm not sure I see really good ones, but hey, this is a video...we're not there). So from what I can see, they are on a path, developing, and maybe with the addition of stronger attacks, they can be on that edge some of us like as budo...

Best,
Ron

Alec Corper 06-16-2006 12:49 PM

Re: What do you think?
 
Based on my limited experience I don't believe so, but, of course, their instructor, whom I respect, obviously thinks otherwise, so I don't think my opinion counts for much.

Ron Tisdale 06-16-2006 01:06 PM

Re: What do you think?
 
I'd be really currious to know how old the participants in the demo are. Does anyone know?

Best,
Ron

Mark Uttech 06-16-2006 01:11 PM

Re: What do you think?
 
Asking age is kind of a cheap shot. Then and again, one cannot point at a single demonstration and say: "This is aikido"

Ron Tisdale 06-16-2006 01:19 PM

Re: What do you think?
 
Hi Mark,

I certainly don't mean it as a cheap shot. I asked because I really can't tell from the video, but I believe these women are very young. I thought that might influence the strength of the attacks and the willingness of the participants to target nage/shite. But perhaps I am over analyzing.

I agree with you to some extent with your last statement though...

Best,
Ron

Richard Langridge 06-16-2006 01:37 PM

Re: What do you think?
 
My newbie's eyes were impressed by their ukemi.

giriasis 06-16-2006 01:48 PM

Re: What do you think?
 
I really enjoyed their demonstration. I enjoyed the flow, rythym and timing of their movements and especially how they reversed each other to switch from uke to nage. I thought they demonstrated great ukemi skills, too.


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