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-   -   Aikido as an alternative to judo kata? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10437)

bob_stra 06-01-2006 12:40 PM

Aikido as an alternative to judo kata?
 
Hello all - long time no see :)

Fate seems to have rekindled my interest in aikido. I posted this over at the judo forum but would also be keen to read your responses.

I've been practicing judo for 4-5yrs now. For the past 18months, I've been training at a 'competitive' club. My judo has become stronger and more sudden. Sadly (I think) it has also become 'too muscular'. Personally, I don't like this trend.

Judo has some very aikido-esque kata's in it. Primarily nage-no-kata. I had the good fortune of experiencing some kata training a while back. My most distinct memory was 'wow - this feels exactly like aikido'.

Sadly, I am no longer able to train judo katas (no kata partners).

Suppose I wanted to explore the benefits of such "kata practice" (eg: developing kuzushi, not muscling things etc).

In your opinion, would 1 day a week of aikido confer similar benefits?

Bear in mind that aikido is not judo - so perhaps it would be detrimental?

I'm taking this from the p.o.v. of a kata alternative, not necessarily as a method of learning aikido per se. Though, of course, I have interested in aikido.

Oh - and FWIW - I in trained yoseikan aikido for about 6months almost...what...3yrs ago, with a few more recent dabbles inbetween (ie: at judo seminars). My aikido experience is not that recent nor that great.

What do those who have done similar things think?

bob_stra 06-01-2006 02:18 PM

Re: Aikido as an alternative to judo kata?
 
Sorry - silly me. For reference:

Nage no kata

Clips
http://home.tkhabc.com/~g.prinsen/

Overview:
http://www.judoinfo.com/katanage.htm

billybob 06-01-2006 03:58 PM

Re: Aikido as an alternative to judo kata?
 
Bob,

I love judo so much. I miss randori free play with one partner. I hope to pick it up soon with a guy at our aikido club, when i'm healthier.

IMHO if you are muscling judo you will muscle aikido. Return to your ukemi - feel the joy of falling, totally relaxed. You can't have a shortage of people who will practice their throws on you!

Once you remember then branch to sacrifice throws and counters Only. Do not 'shoot' or initiate any movement at all. Visualize yourself as a small child with no strength, what will you do?

just my humble thoughts

dave

DonMagee 06-01-2006 05:23 PM

Re: Aikido as an alternative to judo kata?
 
Usually, if I'm successful at using my strength in judo it is because i'm not training with training partners with enough skill to challege me. That might not be your case, but I find that with more advanced partners my strenght means nothing.

kaishaku 06-01-2006 06:09 PM

Re: Aikido as an alternative to judo kata?
 
I think it would be beneficial. But also keep in mind that you may end up doing lots of practice involving, say, shomen uchi instead of collar and elbow clinch.

mathewjgano 06-01-2006 06:56 PM

Re: Aikido as an alternative to judo kata?
 
I probably shouldn't reply because I have no real judo experience, but considering the similar natures of Aikido and Judo, it seems to me they would compliment each other quite nicely.
I was tossed around like a rag-doll by a former olympic-level judoka, and when he was saying I did the technique "better" (it was still pretty weak) Sensei said I was using too much muscle. I think the difference was that the judoka was looking for me to generate more force than I was in trying to move him, while Sensei was trying to get me to move him more easily. Of course, I personally have no real knowledge of who had the better advice, but by all accounts I've heard Sensei knows his stuff, so I'm inclined to think Aikido would be a good way of making one's coordination better while lessening the demand for muscle.

deepsoup 06-02-2006 02:35 AM

Re: Aikido as an alternative to judo kata?
 
Quote:

Bob Strahinjevich wrote:
Judo has some very aikido-esque kata's in it. Primarily nage-no-kata.

If you think that is aikido-esque, you should check out the Kime no Kata and the Goshin Jutsu no Kata!

I don't know if cross training in aikido might help your judo, but I'm sure it would be fun even if it doesn't.

Do you have any Shodokan within commuting distance? There are some kata in the syllabus that I think you'd enjoy.

Sean
x

xuzen 06-02-2006 03:01 AM

Re: Aikido as an alternative to judo kata?
 
When I looked at the Kodokan Goshin-jutsu and Kime-no-kata syllabus, I thought I was looking at aikido.

Boon.

Yann Golanski 06-02-2006 03:31 AM

Re: Aikido as an alternative to judo kata?
 
I'd second Sean's comment here. Check out your local Shodokan dojo (if you have them) and you'll probably enjoy it a lot.

billybob 06-02-2006 07:33 AM

Re: Aikido as an alternative to judo kata?
 
Following Dr. Kano's principles of facing an opponent with 10 units of strength. If I unbalance him he has 4 units, and my 5 will overcome him. If I push or pull my 5 units against said opponent when he is in balance he feels like stone; if he's good he 'isn't there' and I go flying. good times!

If you can overpower someone in a fight - Do it! If the opponent is twice your strength what will you do? Let him try to overpower you, and you are not there - he goes flying.

Simple. (to say)

David

JAMJTX 06-02-2006 08:07 AM

Re: Aikido as an alternative to judo kata?
 
I have simultaneously trained in Judo and Aikido. The 2 arts blend together very nicely and are complimentary, given that they essentially work on the same principles.

The "aiki" feeling you describe doing kata is what Judo is supposed to be. The "muscle" feeling is the difference between American Judo and Japanese Judo. The idea in American Judo is to pick your opponent up and throw him down. In Japanese Judo, the idea is to break his balance first.

Doing Aikido once a week will probably give you back some of what you miss about Judo kata. It may also help you put some of the Ju back into your Judo.

Lyle Bogin 06-03-2006 09:28 PM

Re: Aikido as an alternative to judo kata?
 
Kyuzo Mifune's judo kata were so aikido-like it amazed me to see films of him.

Try to find his film for some inspiration.

Aristeia 06-04-2006 04:15 AM

Re: Aikido as an alternative to judo kata?
 
Hey Bob, good to see you floating around Aikiweb again.
I trained judo and Aikido very briefly and personally found that the footwork got in the way of each other. Having said that I only did it for a few month and it may well have sorted itsefl out over time. Plenty of people do both successfully so that's my bet. The question really lies around whether once a week will do the job or just distract you. I'd say that'll come down to your individual learning style, and the particular styles of Aikido and Judo that you create. IOW only you can asnwer the question having tried it for a while.

Yes that means I have been no help whatsoever '-)

bob_stra 06-04-2006 10:17 PM

Re: Aikido as an alternative to judo kata?
 
Quote:

Michael Fooks wrote:
Hey Bob, good to see you floating around Aikiweb again.
I trained judo and Aikido very briefly and personally found that the footwork got in the way of each other. Having said that I only did it for a few month and it may well have sorted itsefl out over time. Plenty of people do both successfully so that's my bet. The question really lies around whether once a week will do the job or just distract you. I'd say that'll come down to your individual learning style, and the particular styles of Aikido and Judo that you create. IOW only you can asnwer the question having tried it for a while.

Yes that means I have been no help whatsoever '-)

LOL. Thanks Michael - long time no see :)

(and thanks all!)

I have some stuff to ponder over


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