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-   -   Kotegaeshi in practice (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10126)

Richard Langridge 04-08-2006 07:00 AM

Kotegaeshi in practice
 
Hi, just wondered if anyone has had to use kotegaeshi for self-defense.
Thanks,
Richard

Demetrio Cereijo 04-08-2006 07:25 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi in practice
 
I haven't, but a mid-kyu dojo mate did it in a club with the expected results.

raul rodrigo 04-08-2006 08:21 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi in practice
 
A nidan friend of mine did it in response to a mugger coming at him with a knife. He says as he turned and threw, he felt the bones in the man's hand dislocate.

HooverGurl 04-09-2006 10:08 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi in practice
 
I have, actually. It worked out pretty well. I got the guy to let go of me, which was my primary concern.

Eric Webber 04-10-2006 09:59 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi in practice
 
I've used it as a couch commando to wrestle the remote away from someone, worked very well.

Kevin Leavitt 04-10-2006 12:21 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi in practice
 
kotegaeshi is a very effective technique. I have used it from time to time on the job and also in MMA style fighting on guys that are not all that experienced.

Aristeia 04-10-2006 01:34 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi in practice
 
I've used it a bunch of times in BJJ sparring from knees. Not usually twice against the same guy but I guess that's not the point. Fantastic to see the "WTF??" look on their face as they go over.

Richard Langridge 04-10-2006 02:25 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi in practice
 
Cool, thanks for the responses, as a beginner I suspect it would be the first thing that came to mind to use if I needed it.

Aristeia 04-10-2006 03:42 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi in practice
 
IMO the first thing that comes to mind to use should be 1) get off the line, 2)take balance (third point). If you happen to get a technique of some sort on the end, all well and good, but those are the two things to aim for not the end result. Those are the two things that will save your butt.

Bronson 04-11-2006 08:29 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi in practice
 
Quote:

Michael Fooks wrote:
IMO the first thing that comes to mind to use should be...

Key word being "should". In actuallity I've found the first things to come to mind are 1) freeze in panic and 2) wince in pain :p ;)

Bronson

Yann Golanski 04-11-2006 09:12 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi in practice
 
Quote:

Richard Langridge wrote:
[...] as a beginner I suspect it would be the first thing that came to mind to use if I needed it.

*sigh* Then you'll probably not pull it off against a serious attacker. No, I am really not interested in anecdotal evidence. I am talking statistics here.

If you have the misfortune to be in a place of danger, without the opportunity to run to safely and cannot diffuse the situation with words, then your best bet is to let your body do whatever technique it feels like. This is how you become good at martial arts: you train hard to teach your body how to act without you having to give muscles groups orders. The former is fast, the latter slow.

Mu shin, mu gamae -- no mind, no posture.

/just a thought.

Kevin Leavitt 04-11-2006 05:28 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi in practice
 
Michael Fooks, sounds like your experiences are similar to mine with BJJ. All my guys I work with get taken out by kotegaeshi usually at least once or twice by me. I then teach them to keep their hands in and elbows bent and don't reach for someone.

When I go to submission matches where wrist locks are legal, one of the first things I will do is to "bulldog" , push, or check into my opponent to see if they will extend arms. Wrestlers seems to always do that! From there I have done usually kotegaeshi, sometimes sankyo, and once I got Ikkyo for a takedown.

It is amazing, like you said, to see them look in utter shock and disbelief that they got tapped in about 20 seconds from a fricken wrist lock!

Again, you only get away with this once, on the first guy, then you have to go back to the hard stuff!

Nito 04-11-2006 06:13 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi in practice
 
A number of years ago, working as a bouncer, I was talking to a somewhat inebriated gentlemen on a set of stairs inside the club, trying to convince him that the object of his affection would probably not be appreciative of him trying to woo her in the womens restroom. I was always a better talker than a bouncer, so I was kind of surprised when he reached out to try and push me (down the stairs). He was beginning to apply pressure to my chest, so I took one step down, grabbed his hand, and applied a direct, pretty nifty kotegaishi. I would like to say that it was a textbook example, but 1) I hadn't practiced aikido on stairs before. 2) He was really drunk. 3) I had been training for only about a year or so (read nifty kotegaishi as near frantic, complete lack of finesse, sandwich clamping of the guys hand). End result was he was coherent enough to realize the logic of my argument when I had him leaning half way over the railing. The cavalry (other bigger, meaner looking bouncers) came before I could get myself into any more trouble, and we all lived happily ever after. One of the guys asked me later, 'what was that, some sort of Ninja stuff, or what?'
To modify what Mr. Fooks wrote, sometime getting off the line isn't possible (staircase). Luckily, he had drank enough to forgive my lack of experience and skill. I did manage to take his balance, and it was enough to save my butt

raul rodrigo 04-11-2006 08:51 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi in practice
 
Quote:

Manuel Delgado-Eberhardt wrote:
To modify what Mr. Fooks wrote, sometime getting off the line isn't possible (staircase). Luckily, he had drank enough to forgive my lack of experience and skill. I did manage to take his balance, and it was enough to save my butt

In a situation where there isn't much room and the drunken fool is pushing against your chest, it seems to me to be better to grab his wrist, trap his palm against your chest, turn 180, and do hiji-kime (otherwise known as wake gatame in judo). You wind up in a straightforward submission without the risk of doing more permanent injury that he might incur if you send him flying. Just a thought.

Nito 04-13-2006 06:14 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi in practice
 
A very good thought!

ian 04-13-2006 09:22 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi in practice
 
I used it in quite an inoffensive situation once; a drunk girl was arsing around with a big knife at a party so I gently took her hand and used kote-gaeshi as a 'knife removal' technique - very slowly.

I know an ex-instructor used it instinctively when he was stopping someone attacking a woman; he was suprised that the attacker was actually thrown through the air.

Also, a friend of min who studied ju-jitsu used it on an aggressor and damaged their wrist (as in previous post - in this case it was a very linear form but still effective).

My top 3 tchniques for effectiveness (with high level of aggression) = ikkyo, irimi-nage and kote-gaeshi. Noticeably, all these can be done from the outside as well (i.e. not exposing yourself to other arm).

samuraisam 04-14-2006 02:21 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi in practice
 
Quote:

Richard Langridge wrote:
Hi, just wondered if anyone has had to use kotegaeshi for self-defense.
Thanks,
Richard


Hey there Richard,

I've used it a bunch while making arrests. It works out real well....I love it because I can apply it in response to a persons reaction. It tends to make most folks calm down a bit.

Kevin Leavitt 04-14-2006 03:16 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi in practice
 
I think kotegaeshi is a wonderful law enforcement tactic!

Aristeia 04-14-2006 07:05 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi in practice
 
Quote:

Manuel Delgado-Eberhardt wrote:
To modify what Mr. Fooks wrote, sometime getting off the line isn't possible (staircase). Luckily, he had drank enough to forgive my lack of experience and skill. I did manage to take his balance, and it was enough to save my butt

No doubt, off the line is always an idead situation. However having said that I think we're sometimes a little to close minded in what we might mean by off the line. e.g. I would interpret your step down onto the next stair as a type of off the line. (albeit one that doesn't leave you where you'd like to be it ws the movent that was available to you). I suspect it help stretch uke out a little in anticipation of the kote gaeshi?
I think "off the line" in some situations can be as simple as a hip turn, something just to change the relationship between your position and the line of force.

Aristeia 04-14-2006 07:10 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi in practice
 
Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Michael Fooks, sounds like your experiences are similar to mine with BJJ. All my guys I work with get taken out by kotegaeshi usually at least once or twice by me. I then teach them to keep their hands in and elbows bent and don't reach for someone.

When I go to submission matches where wrist locks are legal, one of the first things I will do is to "bulldog" , push, or check into my opponent to see if they will extend arms. Wrestlers seems to always do that! From there I have done usually kotegaeshi, sometimes sankyo, and once I got Ikkyo for a takedown.

It is amazing, like you said, to see them look in utter shock and disbelief that they got tapped in about 20 seconds from a fricken wrist lock!

Again, you only get away with this once, on the first guy, then you have to go back to the hard stuff!

Yep that all sounds about right. I also get katame waza type pins on people from time to time (after all it's just omoplata done with the arms right). And when starting from knees going head to head a type of tenchi nage works very well to take people down - not tried it from standing though. Heck I even got a kaiten nage on someone from knees the other day.

Our budding BJJ org went to our first comp a few weeks ago. A couple of my guys who also used to train Aikido with me (to shodan and ikkyu level - although both were more than ready for the next grade), ended up meeting each other in the semi final. I was very saddened when they resisted my suggestion that they spend the first two minutes putting on an Aikido demo to see if the ref could keep track of the takedowns and then just go from the ground.

Suwariwazaman 04-18-2006 01:41 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi in practice
 
Hello any tips on how to survive Ukemi-Urinshu?Using Kotegaeshi, or any other wrist turn. Oh and Sankyo.

Suwariwazaman 04-18-2006 01:43 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi in practice
 
Quote:

Jamie Julien wrote:
Hello any tips on how to survive Ukemi-Urinshu?Using Kotegaeshi, or any other wrist turn. Oh and Sankyo.

"Connect with uke like heaven and earth. Keep your body triangular, your mind circular"-O Sensei

Upyu 04-23-2006 06:15 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi in practice
 
Quote:

Jamie Julien wrote:
"Connect with uke like heaven and earth. Keep your body triangular, your mind circular"-O Sensei

<Yawn> Now if you could actually explain what that means physically I might give you a cookie :D

jimbaker 05-04-2006 09:43 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi in practice
 
Mike was a prison guard in NY and it was his job to extract reluctant inmates from their cells. He wasn't allowed to have any weapons, so he decided to study Aikido. After his first class or so, he was dealing with a violent prisoner and accidently found he had the guy in kotegaeshi. He took the guy down and the guy got up, so he took him to the ground again and he got up again. After a few rounds of this, Mike said to himself, "I really gotta learn how to pin!".

Aiki x 05-05-2006 06:32 AM

Kotegaeshi in practice
 
Had a couple of guys square up and threaten me after I confronted them about vandalising a youth centre. I grabbed one of the guys wrist and piled on a Kote Gaeshi (Yes, attacking with Aikido!!) . The pain and fear of a broken wrist bought tears to his eyes and made him beg to be released. I do some BJJ, I'll have to try it there.


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