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-   -   flurry of punches (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3173)

Thalib 01-02-2003 02:28 AM

I wouldn't go as far as give him a bloody nose...

With the partners I trained with, I usually just lightly tap them on the head, or flick/touch them on the nose or forehead, for attacks around the head are of course.

Jeff Tibbetts 01-02-2003 05:01 AM

Sometimes I tend to think of this attack as not worthy of attention. I mean, if it's not a commited attack and wouldn't do much anyway, why worry so much about blocking, or doing techniques? Stay off the line, even let a punch or two hit, then they'll calm down and try to land a bigger one! This comes up at work sometimes, we all screw around and try to throw punches or little slaps, and I usually just let it slide because who cares. I don't need to impress them with my crazy Aikido skillz (kidding, obviously) and it won't hurt so why bother treating it like a real attack?

Thalib 01-02-2003 07:55 AM

Exactly...

That's why I said:
Quote:

Iriawan Kamal Thalib (Thalib) wrote:
Hmmm...

Get out of the raging bull's way...

ole~...

The attacker is probably not even looking at you anyway...

I may didn't say it seriously, but it basically is referring to irimi, tenkan, and/or kaiten. Whatever you could do to let him through without "bumping" into you.

locknthrow 01-02-2003 12:29 PM

To Jeff

Oh my goodness!! The terrible work dojo! You always get the guy tryin' to throw a quick

little movement about 12 inches from your face saying, "hey man that martial arts stuff can't block that I could have hit you"

lol

L. Camejo 01-02-2003 12:56 PM

Quote:

Mike Iainttellin (locknthrow) wrote:
You always get the guy tryin' to throw a quick

little movement about 12 inches from your face saying, "hey man that martial arts stuff can't block that I could have hit you"

lol

Aww, you couldn't have put it better man... I could give you a story on that one, happened to me with a body builder no less:).

People sometimes just don't realise how dangerous these things can be for them if the martial artist one day decided he was gonna put restraint on hold for a while.

If they only knew...:)

L.C.:ai::ki:

locknthrow 01-03-2003 02:02 AM

Yeah the main one where I work is a big weight training type

Lyle Bogin 01-03-2003 12:16 PM

Well instead of wondering, have someone you train with who can hit put on some gloves and beat the crap out of you. After learning how to not freak out when you get hit, you will start to figure out how to handle it.

But you have to learn how to take a punch so that you can be less afraid.

Thalib 01-03-2003 12:27 PM

I haven't taken a punch in the face yet... I guess I've learned my lesson after I got kicked on the head...

Lyle Bogin 01-03-2003 12:31 PM

What lesson was that?

L. Camejo 01-03-2003 12:53 PM

To get out of the way instead of admiring the kicker's form :)

L.C.:ai::ki:

Thalib 01-03-2003 10:41 PM

Exactly... :p

I don't want to be a target or a punching bag anymore...

L. Camejo 01-04-2003 07:23 AM

I agree totally Thalib.

This fact was brought home to me at an ITF Tae Kwon Do Tournament that I judged at last year.

Scary :)

Lyle Bogin 01-05-2003 10:40 AM

"To get out of the way instead of admiring the kicker's form "

Haha, yes and excellent point. However, sometimes we get out of the way of one attack only to walk right into another. Sometimes an attack is intended for you to dodge it, as a trap.

I a close friend of mine is an ITF 2nd Dan. Those guys are scary fast, and a back kick from one of them can make you vomit or pass out. That is a classic example of the trap....roundhouse kick, I dodge it and WHAM, back kick.

Bruce Baker 01-05-2003 11:00 AM

I can't be serious with all this "What If..."

So I revert back to the humor and irony of ...

ROPE A DOPE!

or the ever faithful

YUK-YUK-YUK and a volley of Three Stooges Tactics that send my opponent reeling!

Finally we revert to the Killer Bunny Syndrome of MONTY PYTHON.... We RUN FOR OUR LIVES!

RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!

You guys are not listening to sensible training of making the fastest kick or punches seem like they are in slow motion, so maybe "run away" is the training that appeals to you.

Putting comedy aside, you need to increase your reflex actions slowly so that you can see the fastest of movements. Some of Aikido will help you, and for other techniques you will have to go outside your Aikido training.

Awareness of people who can take the best movements found in aikido and turn them against you is not just training, it is a technique in awareness and not becoming complacent with your effectiveness in practice.

Many styles can kick from the ground, or kick from many of our Techniques if they are not effectively used, and your timing leaves large openings for your opponnent.

Study the openings you leave, and options you need to protect yourself from punches, kicks, or countermoves.

Do that .... and then you will stop "What if" in the rhetorical fashion it is applied here.

Isn't that what practice is all about?

Finding the "What if's" and searching for a practical solution?

L. Camejo 01-05-2003 12:15 PM

Quote:

Lyle Bogin wrote:
However, sometimes we get out of the way of one attack only to walk right into another. Sometimes an attack is intended for you to dodge it, as a trap.

Exactly true, in fact I think this a tactic many experienced kickers (strikers in general actually) use against ppl who like to close distance and grab you :) That's why its important as Aikidoka to dictate the terms of maai and engagement as much as possible. Make em play your game, don't fall into theirs.
Quote:

I a close friend of mine is an ITF 2nd Dan. Those guys are scary fast, and a back kick from one of them can make you vomit or pass out. That is a classic example of the trap....roundhouse kick, I dodge it and WHAM, back kick.
One of my students is an ITF 4th Dan, we x-train a lot together. That particular setup is one of my personal favourites.
Quote:

You guys are not listening to sensible training of making the fastest kick or punches seem like they are in slow motion, so maybe "run away" is the training that appeals to you.

... you need to increase your reflex actions slowly so that you can see the fastest of movements. Some of Aikido will help you, and for other techniques you will have to go outside your Aikido training.
Mr. Baker, regarding your post above I have no idea what you are talking about. In saying the above, I believe you ASSUME much about the training systems of others. I can assure you that reflex training against a variety of full speed and very precise attacks form part of the core of our practice. In our dojo if your reflexes are slow you get a very rude awakening. You simply cannot do competitive Aikido if you have poor ma ai and reflex conditioning, much less instruct it.

"Running away" (retreating) and "tasting the blade" (precise timed entering) are both elements of tactic in unarmed combat. The wise person can utilise both at will.

When faced with ridiculous numbers of enemies, traditional samurai used running away to separate the quicker of their enemies from those who could not run as fast, they would then turn around, take those few out and run again to thin the amount of enemies they had to fight at once.

One must be able to pull from the best resources to fit the situation, regardless of where they lay. That is why x training is important, but it is also important to understand the fullness of aikido as well.

I cannot understand how you advocate x training to broaden one's horizons and then make a statement like the one above. So often in aikido we lead our attacker to overextend by alluding to retreating movememnt or using kamae, before doing the opposite (entering off line)... this movement pulls the attack in so you can enter more effectively and setup your technique.

Going back to the point of flurries - as said before you can use the first punch, fade back a bit and pick one of the punches in the flurry, enter when the hands are retreating and a few other options. All have to do with precise timing, setting up your opponent and ma ai. All of which are covered in the principles of most aikido. They only question is how dynamic and how effectively we train to hone these skills. Before anything, one must maintain a calm centre, if we allow ourselves to be taken in by the speed and deception of the flurry we have already lost our psychological centre, in which case, anything we do after will be useless and ineffective.

In sparring and real situations we may indeed have to take a punch, deal with it, move in, do your technique and resolve the conflict.

I do aplogise for the long post.

Sumimasen.

L.C.:ai::ki

MattRice 01-07-2003 12:04 PM

How about the concept of seeing many as one? Same as viewing multiple attackers as one. The flurry can be viewed as one attack. Dunno if that's a valid concept or not, just pondering...thoughts?

shihonage 01-07-2003 01:52 PM

This "pondering" can only be solved by experiencing some "pounding".

I'm a comedy genius !

jimvance 01-07-2003 01:58 PM

You actually think you will see them...?
 
My, my. Lots of interesting stuff. I guess I will just wade in....

Running away is a good tactic. The Spartan army at Thermopylae used it repeatedly to stall the overwhelmingly large Persian army for three days. They would run away while the Persian onslaught charged, then reinforcing groups would impale the chargers on their disciplined phalanx(es). I think running away for a step or two from a hard charging opponent is a good way to let the wind out of their sails, as long as you have an effective counter-tactic. Otherwise, as others have stated above, you may find yourself out of the frying pan and into the fire.

My big question is "What happens when you don't have the benefit of intellectual insight?" In other words, when the fit hits the shan, you are normally in the middle of it, on your back, stunned, or worse. Everyone I have heard above takes the approach that their opponent is going to challenge them Mortal Kombat style, and it will be a battle of disciplines, your strengths against their weaknesses. That is randori or shiai, not reality. If you really want to make good in reality, keep good posture, stay alert, and identify possible problems ahead of time. And keep in mind what my teacher says: "Don't worry, nothing's going to be all right."

Jim Vance

opherdonchin 01-07-2003 02:20 PM

In Israel they say: "'Cheer up,' they told him, 'it could be worse.' So, he cheered up, and they were right: it was worse."

Lyle Bogin 01-07-2003 03:36 PM

As they say, don't run from danger, run to safety.


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