Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Been noticing quite a bit of dissension towards KI Aikido on this forum. Why is that? Is it because many preceive it as ineffective or is it just because of the big split with Tohei Sensei from the Aikikai? I've never understood this in the Aikido community. Please explain. Should I go to another style? Can't KI Aikido be street effective?

May God bless!

Ed

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Can you give us some examples?

Personally I have seen good and bad examples in most styles. When I move to a new place and choose a new dojo (which I have done a few times) I tend to choose the teacher and the training environment that I like best out of the available options, and not necessarily the teacher who does the style that I am used to. This has led to my aikido getting a bit mixed up, but it has also been very interesting.

I would have no problem training at a Ki Society dojo, as long as I liked the instructor and the training environment. For example, I live fairly close to where Maruyama sensei (ex Ki Society) trains, and I might have ended up training with him except for the fact that I would not be able to get to his training on time because of my work commitments.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

I would say it's because generally speaking many have come across people saying they are using Ki and found them to be ineffective. They thus equate these experiences with Ki Aikido. Think about it, how many have you met?

In any Ki or chi activity there are many who are for want of a better word'airy fairy'

Regards.G.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Yes, I have met a few who fell into this catagory, however I have met some who are very good. So it is pretty much a unfair gereralization you think? So you don't think KI Aikido aikidoka aren't as proficient performing waza/ thus translating it to a very street effective self-defense style, as compared to maybe Aikido organizations under the umbrella of Aikikai?

May God bless!

Ed

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Personally, i disagree with any claim that there are more than one aikido traditions. There is only one aikido, although different aikidoka, have different personal styles in the way they execute the techniques. For example, in an other thread i had a conversation about how different is the current Doshu's personal style than Sensei Steven Seagal's. These personal styles however, do not constitute different aikido traditions. So in my opinion what Mr. Tohei, Mr. Shioda and others did, claiming their own styles is wrong, regardless of their effectiveness.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

So who may open a new style / M.A. in your opinion?
Who decides if not the person himself?

In my opinion - a new style is bourne once a teacher decides his way is different than the way of his teacher. He may then open a new style of the same art or a totally new art - it is up to him as the founder to decide. Then, others must decide if they wish to study this new art/style.
the change of the new way from it's predecessor may be minor, it could be some additional techniques, it could be changes in the curriculum and teaching, could be in philosophy or any other issue. It does not matter, once a person decides he is a founder of a new way, and no longer follows his teachers - that is it.

Amir

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

By your logic, you should disagree that there exists such a thing as aikido at all. It´s just Daito Ryu,

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Hi Ed,

Why would you want to go to another style if you are happy with the one you are in? If you were not happy with your training, then yes, it would be worth checking out others to see if it delivered what you wanted.

Of course ki-aikido can be street effective, or rather some people who practice ki-aikido can be street effective, as it is the person not the style that is effective. It may be the case that there is a higher proportion of street effective aikidoka from styles that focus more on martial application, than those in the ki based styles.

I think that Tohei's lineage and teaching methods, has probably attracted many aikidoka who are not practicing for the primary purpose of self defence. They are there for the many other benefits that are gained from learning how to co-ordinate mind and body, which is the main purpose of the ki development exercises, which dilineate this style from others.

I practice and teach ki-aikido, but not with the ki society. I have been on these boards for quite a while, it doesn't bother me that some people here are outright dismissive of the style I practice. I tend to focus on improving what I do, and be open to understanding the limitations of what it is I am learning.

No one style of aikido can be deemed 'better' than the rest, they came from different students of O Sensei. However, just because someone practiced with Ueshiba, doesn't mean they 'got' what he was teaching. Maybe they were not all that good, but because they have the kudos of having spent time in the same place as the founder, they are looked up to, as paragons of aikido.

Let others say what they want, if you are happy following the path you are on, and you know you are progressing along it, then keep going, keep improving, and be open to the fact that there are limitations to all methods/styles.

I have read here recently that the Hombu dojo, has little or no weapons practice going on there. For me, many of the high grade classes I attend are weapons based, occassionally with a live blade. So although some may dismiss me as an aiki-bunny, because of the style I do, I reckon that I would stand a slightly better chance on the street where weapons are involved, than someone who has little or no weapons training at all.

regards,

Mark

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

IMO, most people who dismiss Ki Aikido do not understand and/or believe in Ki - they view it simply as a mental component like intent or will power. In addition to this, they have probably viewed or had experience with someone from Ki Aikido who thought they understood ki, but really did not and could not express it probably.

IMO, ki/chi is controlled by mental intent but it is an entity of its own and acts as the bridge from the mental to the physical; like in Mind and Body coordination. To express proficient Aiki, this must be understood and worked on - Ueshiba knew this as well as other high level students of Takeda.

Greg

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Oh yeah. That's why we are surrounded by founders of martial arts that do not exist.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

O'sensei studied daito-ryu and from that he created a system to teach the martial ways of the samurai, in a modern world where the samurai did not exist anymore. So the change from "jutsu" to "do" is valid, for aikido is a martial art for self-defence, self-developement and not for military purposes. It can be studied by anyone. Yet, techniqually is almost the same as daito ryu, is the goal and the purpose and the choice of not harming your attacker that was o'sensei's contribution. So, this is aikido, there is no other tradition. One can have his personal style up to a certain point (no need for another name though), but if you stray to much, it is not aikido anymore.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

This really seems to be the crux of the matter.

I agree with Mark. If you have a good teacher, then why would you want to change? If on the other hand, you don't, then yes, you should change. It's not about style though, it's about individual teachers. I would much rather have a good Shin Shin Toitsu teacher than a bad Aikikai teacher and vice versa.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Morihei Ueshiba was born in 1883. The days of the "samurai" were long gone. Daito ryu was not a koryu then or now. And Morihei Ueshiba taught Daito ryu. He did not create a system. Kisshomaru Ueshiba and Koichi Tohei created a system.

Let me quote Sokaku Takeda about his definition of Daito ryu:
"The purpose of this art is not to be killed, not to be struck, not to be kicked, and we will not strike, will not kick, and will not kill. It is completely for self-defense. We can handle opponents expediently, utilizing their own power, through their own aggression. So even women and children can use it."

Morihei Ueshiba, once the most favored student of Sokaku Takeda, was only following his teacher in his own personal way. Morihei Ueshiba added his own personal spiritual ideology to create his aikido, but do not get confused -- he was a Daito ryu aiki man through and through. Nearly everything he did can be traced back to Sokaku Takeda.

It's been written that even Sokaku Takeda dabbled into some spiritual ideology and also did some mystical magical things.

Research reveals that a lot of "common knowledge" about aikido is really not all that accurate. More myth than truth.

Mark

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Who is to say how much deviation is allowed within a 'style' before it is no longer Aikido?
In all honesty there are Aikido styles that are more modern than others. Modern in a technical sense, but also more importantly in an operational sense. But this goes off topic...
I have never actually practised Ki-aikido or knowingly worked with someone that did. I did watch several vids, but was not too impressed. All too often the pushing head-while-stting-on-the-floor, you-cannot-lift-from-the-floor and unbendable arm are shown. That is just mechanics, plain and simple. We spent 5 minutes a year on this because there is always someone new who asks. Old movies of Tohei just show Aikido as O Sensei taught him.

Again, it is not better, nor worse, just different training methods.
Funny thing is that at my old dojo two students left and went to practise Ki-Aikido because the current style was too hard...this was Suganuma style Aikido. Just plain traditional Aikikai...
...eye of the beholder thing I guess...

I am afraid the Ki-Aikido society tries to stand out so much they get a lot of interest from other 'styles' what the fuss is about. Under close scrutiny nothing special is shown, so the society gets burned. Hate? no, not hate.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

I don't hate Ki Aikido: I just don't rate it.
I've tried to find out about it - i've looked for videos on YouTube, and there isn't much; I also found out that if you want some videos of the techniques/syllabus, you have to be a certified instructor in order to buy them (at a very high price) from the Ki Aikido HQ.
So I have the impression it's very secretive, and profit-driven...like scientology is.

Then there's the videos I have seen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VGH--Z6RVc

Not that i'm an expert, but the ukemi looks...not so good. It looks like there is never atari/musubi, and with regards to the irimi-nage ukemi in particular: why are they going flying off in a straight line?
I've always been taught - by various teachers, in various styles - that you try and keep close to nage during that (and most other, for that matter) throw: it's the safest place.

Also: the ukes are never stretched - they never get onto their toes; so how can I believe that they're connected to nage, and not just falling down when prompted?

This is what I encountered when I went to a Ki Aikido class: the guy had me in ikkyo, and was just walking around the mat, unable to move me to the floor; eventually, he said "Feel free to go down..." - I said i'd go down if he caused me to (which is, y'know, what an aikido technique does...), to which a dan grade who was practicing with us got all shitty and said "That's not how we practice.".
...shouldn't she have stepped in while he was struggling, and showed him how to effect the technique?

Then when I was training kata dori-nikkyo, the instructor said that when you are grabbed, you don't perform an atemi: no...you raise your hand up towards uke's face, 'With a big wave of energy.' (Ki balls...?).
I'm all for getting abstract and into the philosophy, but I think these Ki people don't know much about budo/aikido, and prefer purely 'spiritual' pursuits - so that's how they practice aikido; they don't understand the whole 'Stopping violence with the spear.': the point of aikido (as I understand it) is not never hurting someone - it's doing the minimum harm possible while doing the right thing/protecting others.
I'm all for resolving things amicably - but some people will never listen: try talking to a drunk, or George Bush, so you might actually have to deal with somebody in a non-verbal/'spiritual' way in life.

This is a foreign language documentary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_uG_tCdID8

...about eight minutes in, the dan grades are training; the ukemi is stuff I got told off for when I was a beginner: the attack is slow, half-hearted; they don't stay connected when their wrist is taken: they leave their back exposed in kote-gaeshi, then just collapse...where's the aiki in that? No connection.
And isn't it unhealthy to receive like that - with just your wrist, as opposed to with your entire body?

I've only been training a few years, but only the other night I was told off for collapsing as uke, and leaving myself exposed to strikes.
These are dan grades, and nobody says nothing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCk_g5-FhuM

Again with the ukemi...it's embarrassing.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCk_g5-FhuM

What's that at 4:38? A push test? My kids push me harder than that.
The ribbon work is pretty devastating though.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

It isn't really about how individual practitioners execute techniques. It is about how the training differs, how the art is transmitted. I am not sure if you intend for your post to be as hyperbolic as it sounds but the fact that ki society, yoshinkan. iwama, and mainline Aikido have differences in training methodology is patently obvious. That's what is meant by "different style."

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Maybe a lot of people see Ki Aikido as airy fairy. Some old timers even dismiss Tohei Sensei as a strong guy, but with a crazy head...

Plus yeah you do get a lot of wannabe's and bad examples out there. So what? You get that from anything really, Wing Chun, Tai Chi, Karate, Tae Kwon Do, DR, etc... Doesn't mean one or two bad examples and the whole organisation is doomed.

Personally it'll all boil down back to the person. Aikido is not a badge you can wear. You can't buy talent, skill.

I've met amazing teachers from Ki Society and their splinter groups. My first school is one of them in fact. And yes, they do churn out some very weird videos people can laugh at. But having felt the man himself, he is not without ability. So there must be some reason I don't understand yet he does those weird stuff.

Its like this. I go to the dojo to learn, not to see if I'm smart.

So you found yourself a teacher you like that you understand and that makes you feel you can master this Aikido thing soon enough. That's great.

I found a teacher I can't defeat, I can't understand and makes me feel like I'm down right stupid. I'm ecstatic

As for street wear... well, you really shouldn't 'Ki aikido' that or 'Tomiki aikido' this... you just do it, like Nike you know.

PS. You don't have to physically atemi the guy for him to feel something. And no its not Ki balls, just intention. But if you're too smart to be an uke, by all means stick your head to that incoming baseball bat! ;)

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

That's the thing: there was no intention.
And as I said (and showed): the ukemi doesn't seem to make sense.

I think you do get bad examples of a martial art - but when you talk about a group/organisation (Aikikai; Ki Society, etc.), that's a different matter.
I've seen plenty of bad aikido - very little has been from Aikikai-approved dan grades; and i've yet to see a bad dan grade in the British Aikido Federation (an Aikikai affiliate I train with).

I've felt effective technique, and seen it applied to other people: it looks nothing like these Ki Aikido examples.

At the end of the day, dan grades are representing your school, and are the future - so if you give one to somebody undeserving of it, then your school is doomed.
As I said: BAF dan grades are really good - and the style is always evolving/refining itself.

FWIW...

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Haha.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

It seems that an apparent lack of martial effectiveness is a major bone of contention for some of the non Ki Aikidoka, but not for the Ki Aikidoka themselves.

Certain styles seem to lend themselves more readily to practical situations, but with a danger that the practitioners may become obsessed with the form of techniques and lose sight of the bigger picture. On the contrary other styles focus heavily on principles but can have a tendency over time lose accuracy and precision in performing techniques.

The great thing is that there are different paths we can choose from. If traveled thoughtfully and attentively these will get you where you want to go. For me the contrast in styles provides important lessons to highlight potential areas that may be lacking in my own practice, although they may not necessarily be the path I choose to travel on.

I respect Noro Sensei for having the good sense to change the name once the deviation reached a certain point (and with it any preconceived ideas from outsiders that it should or shouldn't be this or that way).

There are many paths to the summit of Mount Fuji but there is only one summit. Arguing over which path is better is distracting from enjoying the view.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Hi Graham,

what exactly do you find embarassing about the guy's ukemi in the Kolesnikov clip?

You may not rate ki aikido (what dilineates ki aikido from other styles is the training method,) but it shares the same philosophy and purpose of all aikido, which comes from the same source.

I could deconstruct many videos shown on you tube and tell you where I think people are leaving openings, not doing things right etc, regardless of style.

I watched Sensei Kolesnikov demonstrate a class when I was only a few years into training. I found his explanations good, and his technique looked smooth and pretty powerfull. I have since met a teacher who I rate very highly, who started his aikido career with him over 30 years ago. He spoke well of him too.

It is easy to dismiss, without fully knowing. If you have been only training for a few years, maybe concentrate on improving your own abilities to a level where you can confidently dismiss long term practitioners, from a place of real ability and knowledge.

The longer I practice (ki-aikido for 19 years) the more humble I have become as to the value, benefits and drawbacks of my own style and the different styles of others.

We are all here on a journey of improvement. I thought my style was superior when I first started, now I understand that that is wrong thinking, part of the 'fighting mind' my teacher berates his students for having - the thing that stands in the way of aikido.

Enjoy you training, let others enjoy theirs

regards

Mark

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Off the top off my head: what stood out most was the shiho-nage. When Mr Kalesnikov had folded his arm back, the uke was stood there, in perfect kamae; I never see any kuzushi - his balance is never taken - in the other techniques, either.

I might not have been training for long, but surely that means i'm more familiar with the basics of effective technique (as i'm always reminded of them when being corrected)?
Compare that shiho-nage, with this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAVP7F89cpU

Uke is stretched (has his balance broken), hence the throw is easily accomplished.

And as I said: I don't see that connection between nage and uke is important to these people; when he takes him down for the ikkyo, for example, uke is falling away from nage - Mr Kolesnikov has to catch up with him.
I was at a class the other day, where two people taught, then the head instructor closed the class: he said that it was good that they emphasised the importance of staying 'alive' as uke - that's what aiki is, isn't it...? That way, you can feel the technique, and you can counter if an opening presents itself.

I understand that people train a certain way for decades - and they like what they're doing; but I also train under a man of immense power, who frequently asks that uke is strong; tries to push him over; stop him moving etc. - someone who teaches people whose aikido I have no doubt about: people who don't spend their time intellectualising aikido, but just doing it; he remarks that he trained a certain way for decades - then finally understood, and now he actually has very powerful aikido.

I might not be very good at aikido - but then, i'm not very good at cricket: but I still know a good shot when I see one.

All the best.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Graham,

Thanks for your honest observations, thoughts and oppinions that made me think. Just want to add some questions for thinking and discussion.

1. Is visible stretch a must when the Uke's balance is taken?

2. What is the nature of a connection in Aikido?
3. Is visibility a must for a successful connection?

4. Is it possible for us human to see something invisible?
5. What can we do if we want to get some knowledge of something invisible?

Enjoy Aikido!

Ting

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Hi Patrick,

this comment shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the test being performed.

Mind body co-ordination (which is the goal) tests were devised by Tohei Sensei, to promote this aspect of aikido, they are 'not' just about physical pushing. In fact if you push just using the body, you are performing the test completely wrong. The test is made to establish that nage has his mind and body connected and that the mind is in the right direction. They are as much a test of the mind as the body.

The tester themselves must be using co-ordination to perform the test, it looks light and it is light, the idea being to be sensitive enough to feel for any tension in the system or wavering of the mind.

Dissing something that you don't understand seems to be common practice, which is a shame.

It is wiser to ask questions, or to seek out and try for oneself, than to dismiss offhand.

regards,

Mark
p.s. I'm not sure about the ribbon though either.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Hi Graham,

thanks for your observations.

Ting asks some good questions in his response to you, regarding visible and invisble factors. Physical balance breaking is plain to see. It is the kuzushi that most are familiar with. I have no problem with the basic nature of this. However, if the mind/ki is led correctly, the body has little option but to follow. This is closer to what is being seen, than in the alternative clip you provide below.

Good question, but I doubt it. I spend more time now exploring the truth in the basic movements, than I did when I was at a similar level to yourself.

Interesting clip, it is obvious to see the uke being stretched, but my question would be, why does the uke give himself away so easily? He stands quite static allowing his arm to be drawn away from his body, thereby losing connection with his centre and the ground. This is common for most ukemi I watch being done. It is easy to throw someone, who gives themselves away like this.

I agree with this,

I too train under a man of undoubted great power, who never spends time intellectualising aikido, a true man of budo. He no longer asks for uke to be strong, to push him, stop him moving etc. he went through all, that along time ago in the early years. He now insists that uke is relaxed, sincere in their attack, that they stay connected throughout the attack, and they don't give themselves away. He has mastered the non resistance that is at the heart of aikido. It is a phenomenal experience to be thrown with such effortless power.

As you practice and improve your own aikido, I'm sure you will see things in others that you cannot see at the moment, such is the nature of all of this.

Personally, I enjoy watching different types/styles of aikido, I learn more from trying to understand them, than by watching demos of ki aikido, which I think I understand to a decent level already.

regards,

Mark

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Hello Mark,

you don't know me, so I'll ignore the chiding and the condescension.
I'm quite familiar with push tests, and unless you're saying that the way Ki aikido does them is utterly different, then please explain:

a. You can only be "sensitive enough to feel for any tension" if you're pushing lightly. Really?

b. In both "tests" in the video, nage exhibits slack and appears to adjust when uke lets go. If he is maintaining the correct "mind and body connection" (to use your terms), should he not be stable within himself and not reacting to uke?

c. How can you test the martial efficacy of your stability if uke only ever uses a light push? Where I train, I have to maintain that stability within myself against a 200-lb guy who can push very very hard while being perfectly sensitive.

Patrick

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Graham,

I think you raised valid questions. In fact it was a humorous point raised by the ki dojo when an aikikai lady dropped by to train. They were horrified at her iriminage which approached a clothesline instead of the point the fingers through the eye line that they were used to.

Having gone through both schools and many different teaching styles, I think I can safely say that I get it, either way. Both have their own reasons and they are perfectly valid if taken in each context.

The shihonage and other techniques appear to be martially ineffective. I agree with it. But that it is not the purpose of their training nor would that technique be applied in a real situation either.

To put it simply, Sensei K once asked us how many times have we been mugged or needed to use aikido for 'real'. In his 4 or 5 decades of practice, he hasn't need to once. Thus his aikido practice is really useful if it brings him health and joy, i wouldn't discount his skills should he ever need it though, but there you go...different objectives. A bodybuilder and a power lifter may lift weights but they do it with different objectives and thus accomplish different levels of profficiency.

About the shihonage and the kotegaishe and the other stuff... It's pretty much in keeping with the way tohei does it. You don't return the circle to the lower back by way of extending uke's arm over the shoulder,but they use some imagination in creating the circle. Also it's never a pull but a soft touch. You can try and check it out if you ever meet a guy who does this aikido anyway. Just stand firm and try not to fall down. Even though there isn't kuzushi in the beginning, you'd probably fall regardless.

By the way, Is BAF similar to BAB? Sensei K is with the BAB and if I remember correctly, used t be invited to teach in their cross affiliation seminars way back when.

There's a test that he does he didn't show in the vid. I've always been impressed with it. He'll stand on his rear leg and have someone push his outstretched leading hand. You can't push him over. It's a basic ki test, one that tohei has a picture of. I'm pretty sure I pushed him quite hard before and cpuldn't budge him. Yet, that isn't the point of the exercise either. It's more of a way to build up nage's centering ability,

As for the ukemi I can't say it's bad or good. But the point was to walk straight at the end of the round. This is make sure you move from the center not the eyes,

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Hi Patrick,

it's true, I don't know you, I was only responding to the dismissive nature of the comment. I apologise if I came across as condescending to you personally.

There are plenty of comments made on these boards, by people who do not fully comprehend what they are dismissing. So I was only trying to shed some light on this particular test. which I understand, is testing mind not just body. It is only an exercise, not proof of martial effectiveness.

I too am familiar with the full on physical pushes to test stability, of course one has to be stable under pressure. I didn't say that the only way to test was to test lightly. In my own experience, I am aware that I am more sensitive to the tension in the other, the more relaxed I am myself'.

I wasn't commenting on how well I thought the demo was being done either.

I'm sure ki aikido does some things differently from other styles, some maybe utterly, however, I see much more similarity to others than difference.

As you may have seen from another thread, I am planning to travel extensively next year, practicing in as many different aikido dojos as possible. I will be out to learn as much as I can and make as many good connections as I can on the way.

Hopefully you will be close to my route, so maybe we could compare tests, and afterwards I will by you a beverage of your choice:)

regards

Mark

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Interesting replies

Over the past years I have trained in styles of Tamura Sensei and Suganuma Sensei, but foremost Tamura and one of his students Alain Peyrache is now my teacher The difference between Tamura and Suganuma is quite big, it appears (on seminars and their approach of teaching).
One might observe Suganuma has bigger movements and mainly much more displacements than Tamura. (Same goes for Kanetsuka Sensei and Fujitsa Sensei.) Both work equally well, on the surface. But martially spoken Suganuma Sensei moves around too much. Everything can be done with less displacement, less movement (i.e. more effectively).
Thing is: Suganuma Sensei has less interest in that direction, so his style/teaching is different. Better? Depends on you, what you look for.

He who has trained well can certainly judge the level of understanding of Aikido by looking at a technique. Off course he judges with his developed frame of reference and may approve or disapprove accordingly.

For me when aite(attacker) is stationary and tori(defender) moves around this indicates bad understanding of taking the center. Tori only adapts to meet the speed of aite and remains the center of movement and aite moves around like a satellite.
Like my teacher says: when I am in the center you can run around like Carl Lewis, but I will be faster, always.

babbled enough...sorry....

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

I agree Mark and i always like your research, that's why i said that technicaly daito ryu and aikido are the same. My knowledge isn't inaccurate at all, but i believe that Sokaku Takeda, being a "dojo buster" himself was inconsistant with his own words about the purpose of daito ryu. But for the rest i agree, technicaly they are the same.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

The art's basic principles and martial effectiveness. If one does his own variations within the art's basic principles, then it is aikido. No need to call it "this or that" style aikido, is just aikido. I don't hate anything either, i just disagree with putting different names on it. It's my opinion anyway...

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

I didn't want to sound hyperbolic in any way, and by the way i agree with you about these differences, they are obvious. Even inside Aikikai there are a lot of differences. For example if you see the current Doshu, Steven Seagal sensei, Christian Tissier sensei and others it's quite obvious that each one has his personal style in executing and in teaching techniques. But none of them is claiming his own style. So what i said is that i disagree with claiming other traditions and putting names and labels on them. But this reflects my own personal view. In fact, i respect some teachers that are claiming their own traditions for their technique (such as real aikido's Nenad Ikras). Although i still disagree with the choise of labeling his style that way, his technique is great and very effective.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Is this not exacty where all the discussions get fueled?
There is no agreement on the basic principles it seems. And there is little agreement on what exactly is martial effective. The latter is quite easy to answer: In Aikido there is always an escape, so it is not martially effective. Aikido was not intended to be. Aiki jujutsu is.
The basic principles for me are those that occur to some degree in every technique. (we emphasize shi sei, ma-ai and kino nagare).

But sure I agree with you there is often no need to distinguish between Aikido practise. One might argue that the only distinction would be Aikido and Tomiki Aikido because on the outset practise and intend is different.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Interesting thread.

I came to Aikido with a background of studying a 'hard' style of Gendai Ju-Jitsu and opted for Ki Aikido within Sensei Kolesnikov's association as I'd previously tried some Tai Chi which, whilst enjoyable, wreaked havoc on my knees.

I stayed with Sensei Kolesnikov's association until 3rd kyu and came to the realization that whilst the practise was enjoyable I was not getting what I wanted out of it (i.e. some element of martial application).

Kolesnikov Sensei was clear when he came to do seminars in my local area that he considered his practise of Aikido to be primarily health-related and consequently did not focus specifically on combat orientations to any great depth (the Tai Chi and Rythmic Gynastic-like Ribbon demonstrations are relatively recent developments of Kolesnikov Sensei. There were not practised nor talked about when I trained with his association 11 years ago).

I, therefore, chose to look elsewhere and joined another local Ki-based Aikido association which I remain a part of currently. The difference is like chalk and cheese in terms of practise. Combat focus is central within this association and is taught throughout the whole syllabus, whilst the Ki Aikido principles developed by Tohei Sensei are retained.

The nub of this is that I have found an expression of Aikido that works for me and enables me to combine elements of Ki, softness and effectiveness. I have had to both adapt my body and mindset to this particular style and also make some changes to my practise to accommodate my ageing and arthritic body (for example, I can only do Iaido and Kokyu Dosa whilst standing as sitting in Seiza is not possible due to the acute pain caused by Arthritis in the top of my Left foot).

To my mind, the debate should not be one of whether one particular style of Aikido is better than another in terms of effectiveness etc. I believe that it should be one of establishing what style works for each individuals body structure, mindset and temperament etc. and why that is the case.

I no longer need to rely on strength and actively use Ki, softness and weight underside to make techniques work. This does not mean that my Aikido is any better or worse than people who may use strength and/or other principles in technique in order to make their Aikido work for them. It's just a different way and means of coming to the same conclusion.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Correct of course. Tomiki is where it seems that they strayed to much. The basic principles are to be centralised, extend ki, lead the opponent without using force and move using more than one orbits (not always though), principles that you can apply into non-resisting techniques. Putting aikido in competition is against both the spirit and the principles. If you watch how they do it, you'll know what i mean. I just see people resisting and grappling...And the goal and intend (as you also mentioned) of practicing changes also.
Aikido was meant to be martially effective and it is. In a real application you can immobilize, or project (through) the attacker according to the situation. You can also disarm him, technicaly is almost the same as daito-ryu.

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

The last Ki Society seminar I attended in full was by Kataoka Sensei about 8yrs ago, he stated that Aikido isn't a martial art, however grabbing his wrist off an on over the years tells a different story.

I think aikido attracts an interesting subset of the martial art community and Ki Aikido a subset of that. Its not too hard to imagine that a feedback loop of what attracts and keeps students could drive the focus of a dojo/school/style and so the Ki aspect, which is what makes Ki Aikido unique can shift the focus away from 'mainstream' aikido.

Having started in Ki Society and trained around quite a bit in most many other schools of aikido I don't see any style having a monopoly on doing O'Sensei's aikido and those that tend do be doing the best seem to have broken from the mould/constraints of their style somewhat.

As a generalisation its pretty clear that for the rank and file student that the path to martial effectiveness in the short term tends not to be a strength of the Ki Aikido style schools

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

Note that not everyone is claiming to do the founder's Aikido, Tohei in particular was quite clear on this point:

"The one essential thing I learned from Ueshiba Sensei was how to relax. He was always relaxed in the face of conflict, which is why his Aikido was so strong. He would do this himself, but he encouraged his young students to hold with as much strength as possible. In Aikido if you are not relaxed you cannot throw a person. It seemed a mystery to us that Ueshiba Sensei could always throw, could always get out of a hold. He would lead your Ki, and could always throw his opponent in the direction he was already going. I began to make rapid progress after I started copying what he did, and paid less attention to what he said. I ended up only keeping about 30% of the techniques I learned from Ueshiba Sensei, changing or dropping the rest. What I really learned from him was not technique, but the true secret of Aikido, non-dissension; not to resist your opponent's strength but to use it."

the complete interview is here:
http://www.toitsu.de/texte/tohei_en.htm

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

I wonder who was doing the straying here, take a look what Tohei had to say about the origin of his four principles (for the impatient; it's not the founder) :

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=NtQDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA44&ots=u-OI5-Ihzp&dq=tohei%20have%20not%20learned%20nothing%20%20from%20ueshiba&pg=PA41#v=one page&q=tohei%20have%20not%20learned%20nothing%20%20from%20ueshiba&f=false

Re: Why so many Haters of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido?
 

I have not trained with a Ki Aikido dojo/student before but my thought is if it is trained from the standpoint of being a self-defense then I would imagine it to be as effective as anything else out there.

I think that Ki Aikido gets a bad wrap because people come across clowns that tout great ki and perform with mystic like abilities with their own students but cannot do the same with others.