Ki and Technique...
 

I have been taught that using Ki in our techniques will add potential, is that true? Example when I see an open spot while open sparring and I make a strike adding a 'kihai!' will add strength. is this tue for all techniques?

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Extending energy with honest and genuine intent and intensity benefits all you do.
Yes, IMHO, it is true.

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

As all topics of Ki wil have a million opinions...here is one.

IMHO, you cannot correctly perform the "technique" without the application of KI.

Viewing KI as a separate and distinct phenomenon from the physical aspects of practice will cause you issues...if not physically, then mentally in the appication and understanding of aikido and martial arts in general.

I personally leave my KI stuff as experiential. That is, I experience it as I learn and grow, do not seek to apply it, harness it, or cultivate it directly.

To me it becomes one of those Koan things in zen. If you seek it directly...it will escape you just as you find it.

Although as you state...a good Kiai certainly never hurt and is, IMHO, a verbal/physical manifestation of KI that can focus your energy and strength when needed!

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

My two cents,
Ki is not something in itself, Ki is a consecuence, an state.
A consecuence of focusing body, mind and spirit (intention/will) to achieve certain goal. In whatever field you are, not only aikido, in any sport or activity, for that matter, you can achieve ki.
So ki is an state in which your body, your senses, mind, will, all of what you are is aimed to achieve certain goal.
For example, a heavyweight lifter, when he is going to lift the weight, he aligns his body in the optimal position for that purpose, also concentrates his mind in lifting the weight, his will/intention is to lift that weight, so he generates this "supernatural" stength/power to lift that weight. But in reality is not supernatural, and is not magic.
Take the same heavyweight lifter, trying to lift the same weight, but this time have him standing in an awkward position, he will not be able to lift the same weight, beacuse his body is not properly aligned, even though his mind and will are focused to lifting the weight.
So, Ki is a state in which a person is focusing all what he/she (body/mind/spirit/will/intention) is to achieve certain goal in any activity in life.
But ki is not a supernatural energy, all migthty power, that one can feel and/or project at will, Jedi style, that's a lot of bullshit.
Ki cannot be measured, felt, projected or otherwise in itself because is not something in itself, it is just an state.
Like love, anger, happinness, etc. They are states, they exist, but are states. You can't measure love or anger, in themselves, or happines in itself, but you can understand love or hate by its phisical manifestation (like a hug or a kiss or a punch), and what you can measure is the physical manifestations of love or anger, i.e. the strengh of a hug, the duration of a kiss, the force of the punch. In the same way you can measure the physical manifestations of ki, in the heavyweight lifter example, would be the force generated to lift the weight.
So ki is an state, a consecuence, not a supernatural force. Also Ki has physical limitations.
Using the same heavyweight lifter example, he alings his body, focuses his mind, and his will to..... lift train above his head. Well, he just wont be able to do it.
So ki is not unique property of aikidokas, everybody has benn in the ki state, some time, even without knowing.
Ki is an state, an unavopidable consecuence of just doing things right.
I tryed to be as clear as possible, but english is not my native languaje

Bratzo Barrena
Instructor Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral FL

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Hi Ya BB, Do you practice Meditation? Malc
" It is the supreme state of Aikido to be one with the Spirit of the Universe. For this reason it is called the Budo of Unification and Oneness".M.Ueshiba

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

"Ki" essentially means "energy". It is used idiomatically in martial arts. It has not weathered translation into the English idiom very well. Do research on ki and qi in martial arts, learn the language if you can, and try to crack the idiom.

The same goes for "kokyu" as well.

Good luck...

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

I still cannot decide if Ki is an endless path or a bottomless pit.

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Well Lyle, do you think you have ki? If you don't think you do, why not? If you think you do, why?

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Hi ya L.B, I read your thread, and it reminded me of a saying in the ancient Chinese book ‘The Tao Te Ching'
No14
Look and it can't be seen,
Listen and it can't be heard,
Reach and it can't be grasped.

Above it isn't bright,
Below it isn't dark.
Seamless, unnameable,
It returns to the realm of nothing. Form that includes all forms,
Image without an image, subtle, beyond all conception.

Approach it and there is no beginning;
Follow it and there is no end.
You can't know it, but you can be it, at ease in your life.
Just realize where you come from;
This is the essence of wisdom.

It's hard to stand in the void, but it's not empty, it's just you must learn to be aware in a different way, Just Meditate every day, 1hour is a minimum. Read ‘The Way of Peace', O'Sensei wrote it for You, what a great teacher he was;

107
The Divine is not something high above us. It is in heaven, it is in earth, it is inside of us.
108
Unite yourself to the cosmos, and the thought of transcendence will disappear. Transcendence belongs to the profane world. When all trace of transcendence vanishes, the true person - the Divine Being - is manifest. Empty yourself and let the Divine function.
109
You cannot see or touch the Divine with your gross senses. The Divine is within you, not somewhere else. Unite yourself to the Divine, and you will be able to perceive gods wherever you are, but do not try to grasp or cling to them.
All the best Malc

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Ki and shouting is not the same. However I would certainly say that vocalisation can help to provide focus in generating more power, with timing, and also with disorientating the enemy. I find I use it involuntarily within weapon work since often very urgent and decisive moves with perfect timing are required.

Ki is a very complex subject (covered in many other threads). Simply put it is 'energy' which you can accumulate, and then realse (as jing) through correct posture, coordination and movement. I'm not sure if I believe in the mythology, but it is a good model of how to improve your technique and your health so that you can perform effectively.

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

James Webb wrote:

I have been taught that using Ki in our techniques will add potential, is that true? Example when I see an open spot while open sparring and I make a strike adding a 'kihai!' will add strength. is this tue for all techniques?

Hi James,
I'm using your term "using Ki" as extending Ki. A definite yes on adding potential on any technique or for anything we do in our life. I have been a student of Ki Aikido for just a year and a half now and the things that I learn on every Ki class we never ceases to amaze me. Extending Ki when you perform anything allows you to perform at your full potential.

As far as "Kiai" is concerned, we normally do not do this during practice but in my opinion, it adds to your focus and therefore adds energy towards the technique.

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Hi ya I.D, This is the spiritual part to this web site but it seems there are not many Aikidokas who have any positive ideas about O'Sensei's Aikido(spiritual side) and seem like yourself to believe it all to be silly stories (myths). One thing is definite that the great man did not write works like ‘The Way of Peace ‘ because he was bored one day or wanted to play a joke. I can understand that most people come to Aikido like any martial art to basically learn to ‘kick ass', but then to read/be told that the founder was ‘into that mystical stuff' would not be understood.
I come from a different angle I have been practicing RajYoga for 30yrs and Tai Chi for 10yrs, and come to this site to see if anymore works of the great man have been found/translated as teachers like O'Sensei can inspire followers of ‘the way' and help us to practice harder our meditation techniques. It is a shame that meditation has so many different types/styles and money making people that have jumped on the band wagon. We now have chanting, shaved heads, living in caves, giving up sex, practicing detachment, whale music, Yoga mats, staring at candles, standing on one leg, hugging trees and all the new age stuff, it seems on the outside like a load of rubbish and most of it is, but when the Founder tells us to use the Pranayarma in ‘The Way of Peace, he pointed out the most commonly used REAL technique of meditation.
There is an experience of Peace/Love in side every human being and it is there, waiting to be tapped into. It is hard to clear our head of all the thoughts that constantly chatter away in our every day but it's only when we do this that we can be come aware of this wonderful experience, we touch it from time to time when the head stops or in training, a quiet state but with the next thought it can be gone. Practicing meditation every day helps us to control this crazy beast that lives in our heads, as my teacher asked me " Do you want to be a passenger or do you want to be the pilot of your life" this is so true, all you smokers out there who have tried to give up will know how powerful this mind of ours is, and to tell people to sit quietly on there own? Well that sounds like solitary confinement and that's used as a torture! If you were to try O'Sensei's way and meditate everyday you will be engulfed by the Inner Light, then there are know doubts, it is awesome, wonderful, the best orgasm you'll ever have (with none of the mess). But it's not like a chocolate bar machine, you put in your money and it comes out, it may take yrs, it took me two years to have Kensho.
Trust the Great Man and turn your awareness that goes outside all the time and focus inside, it is hard but the rewards are enormous. Have a look at ‘The Nature of Aiki' by G.S.Ledyard on this site, very nice article. I'll shut up now, here's some more words of the great man, I've added a bit in brackets hope know one minds All the best Malc
We can say that Aikido is a way to sweep away devils with the sincerity of our breath (PRANAYARMA) instead of a sword. That is to say, to turn the devil-minded world into the World of Spirit. This is the mission of Aikido.
There is no enemy for Ueshiba of Aikido. You are mistaken if you think that budo means to have opponents and enemies and to be strong and fell them. There are neither opponents nor enemies for true budo. True budo is to be one with the universe; that is to be united with the Center of the universe (MEDITATION)).
Then, how can you straighten YOUR warped mind, purify your heart, and be harmonized with the activities of all things in Nature? You should first make the kami's heart yours (THROUGH MEDITATION). It is a Great love, Omnipresent in all quarters and in all times of the universe.
Winning means winning over the mind of discord in YOURSELF. It is to accomplish your bestowed mission.
This is not mere theory. You practice it. Then you will accept the great power of oneness with Nature.

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

"The Way Of Peace" was written by John Stevens, not Ueshiba Sensei.

Best,
Ron

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

I guess it depends on what is meant by using ki. Defining ki is important or else we're not speaking the same language and transmitting genuine meaning.

Entering into a real opening will definitely always add strength to a technique.

Tarik

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Use the search function ;)
It's been done to death...

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

" Morihei Ueshiba (1883-1969) was history's greatest martial artist. He was the founder of Aikido, which can be translated as "The Art of Peace." Morihei Ueshiba is referred to by the practitioners of Aikido as O-Sensei, "The Great Teacher". The following quotations have been compiled from O-Sensei's collected talks, poems, and calligraphy, and from oral tradition."
Hi ya Ron, As O'Sensei was Japanese and I can't read the Japanese language, I do rely on compilers and translators for an insight into the great mans words, (it's a shame that the points made in my thread were missed, but not completely unexpected). Please could you verify that Mr Stevens is a liar and any articles by him are also lies? As I wouldn't like to misquote O'Sensei.
Also Ron do you do meditation? And if so have you experienced Kensho? Also you made no comment on the article by Mr Leyland. Please feel free to add to this thread and move it forward. All the best Malc

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Apparently no "shades of gray" here.

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Well, Malc.... looks like you've been sent to Coventry.

Mike

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Hi Malc,

Where in my post did I claim that Mr. Stevens was a "liar"? You really should learn how to read before you cast such inaccuracies and aspersions. As it happens, I consider Stevens Sensei a friend, and teacher. I do not agree with all of his perspectives, but any disagreements with his perspectives are always polite and respectfull. I certainly wouldn't bandy them about in this forum, in any case. And certainly not with you.

If you wish to move this conversation forward, I'd accept an appology. ;)

Best,
Ron

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Hi ya Ron, Are we both trying to defend the excellent Mr Stevens work? I hold his work in the highest regard, and would advise any Aikidoka to read any of his books they have certainly inspired me. I am sad that you are upset and I apologise for this as harmony is what I want in my and every one's life. You may have noticed one of the other posts also miss understood your post as he wrote about ‘grey areas', I don't agree, Mr Stevens translations are excellent, any way I shall close before any one decides to burn me at the stake. I wish you all the best bye .Malc I shall not bother you all again.

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Hi Malc,

The other poster was referring to your post, not mine ;) And I'm not upset...just speaking strongly about what you said. You can speak strongly without being upset, which is why I used the smiley. Just because you don't agree with someone on some things does not mean you think they are a liar... ;) But your apology is certainly accepted. No reason for you to stop 'bothering' us...you weren't. Hopefully you'll continue to post.

As for the published works of John Stevens, I have most of them. My favorite is his biography of Teshhu. The next would be his book about the aikido of Rinjiro Shirata. The next would be his translation of 'Budo', written by Ueshiba, and the photos Stevens Sensei added. The others are more hagiography to my mind...they contain much of the 'lore' of Ueshiba and aikido...but when it comes to actual history, I prefer Stan Pranin's work. But this preference in no way takes away from the tremendous gifts Stevens Sensei has given to me personally, and to aikido in general.

Best,
Ron

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Hi Ron:

If you disagreed with some of Steven's perspectives, where would you discuss them, if not here? Disagreement would allow you to make your points and people could decide for themselves while at the same time getting people to think, follow your reasoning, follow Stevens' reasoning, and so on. When someone publicly prints something, it's open for discussion. I've followed some discussions about things I've printed and agreed, disagreed, and learned. It's always added to my own picture, never detracted.

Regards,

Mike

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Even the best translations are heavily filtered by the translator's own perspective and/or bias (conscious and unconscious). I recommend that you learn Japanese so that you can read the originals, without Mr. Stevens' filter.

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Hi Mike,

Well, I don't necessarily disagree with what you are saying. And if Stevens Sensei participated in these boards, I might well take your advice. But he doesn't, and most likely will not. His choice, and I don't fault him for it.

What a lot of people seem to have problems with on boards like these, is that actual, living relationships are much more important to me (at least) than the conversations and discussions we have here. Since I have an actual, living relationship with Stevens Sensei, I choose to value that over any discussions here. So when he is in the area, he shares things with me, I share things with him, and we discuss. Along with any mat time we get in together. I wouldn't cheapen that relationship by bringing that stuff online.

But that is just my own personal perspective, and it doesn't have to be shared by anyone else.

Best,
Ron

Love and Aikido -- Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Less esoterically, practice of martial art as a endeavor in love is not antithetical. It is in fact a realization of the highest level of art in battle, and the revealing of a powerful but perilous truth.

Men do not fight and die in battle for the sake of country, honor, fame or to avoid recrimination. They fight out of love of one another, for those who stand arm to arm with them and would also die to defend them. Love, and love alone drives men to charge machine guns when their own ammunition is spent and the bayonet their only remaining weapon. Nothing but love will drive a man so far past the bounds of any hopes of personal survival. It is a love both life-altering for oneself, live or die, and both awful and terrifying to behold in another.

On the pyres of such love have empires and mighty civilizations been burnt to utter ruin by the passion of a few -- it is not a delicately frail thing. One man, in my religious tradition, willingly suffered and died for such love of the whole world, and in the most ignoble manner possible, yet that love still altered the course of world history, if not eternity. Love is mighty, indefatigable and can cherish or kill with equal fervor. Love is a fierce and awesome force.

We approach therefore with both caution and reverence this thing that we dare to awaken in our hearts, and in which we train our limbs to answer. We aikidoka do it, however, with one advantage over other martial traditions, which O-Sensei taught us:: we know that love is the true call we must answer to train in the Way of war (budo), even to love those with whom we fight -- as that other great man also taught us.
We must not do disservice to ourselves or our students by suggesting that love is a marshmallowy walk through flowery fields, or long spells of mere navel-gazing.

By all means kiai -- with all the ferocity and love you can manage.

Cordially,
Erick Mead

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

I've commented about translations before and I'll mention it again... even native speakers of Japanese and Chinese, people who are raised in the culture but like any other person cannot know all the history and lore, will make mistakes in translations related to martial arts. Over and over again, in my experience, I've seen fluent translators and historians make enormous basic errors because they don't understand the context or functional usage some of the apocryphal comments in martial arts refer to. And I've yet to see any well-known western translartor really admit that problem; although the bright native-speaking translators will often admit that the idiom, ancient usage, etc., of the subject matter may make their translations incorrect. Everything has to be taken with a grain of salt... even what I say about taking things with a grain of salt. ;)

FWIW

Mike

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

If only the Far Left and the Far Right shared that view. ;)

Mike

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

:) Yeah, like THAT'S ever gonna happen... :)

B,
R

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

I too, occasionally find Stevens' views problematially peeping through translations. It is unavoidable, but it should be noted as a universal problem.
A good comparative source on a number of the Doka Stevens translates (e.g. -- "Essence of AIkido") may be found in "Budo Training in Aikido. " The translators of "Budo Training in AIkido" use both a translation that attempts to leave the waka form of the Japanese verse intact in very spare, nearly literal word for word transcription, and a parallel translation into more idiomatic English versiform.

Also great pictures and techinques descriptions drawn directly from O-Sensei's own class presentations. Much worth having.

The comparisons betwen the parallel verses and Stevens versions are instructive and the differences are interesting.

Cordially,
Erick Mead

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Thanks for the pointer, Erick. I will buy the book and take a look (what the hey.... what's one more book on top of the tons I already have ;) ).

There are already some deathly quiet book-writers in the Chinese martial arts who have found out belatedly that they badly missed the boat on the qi and jin issues in earlier books because even though they were reasonably fluent and knowledgeable, this closed-category of knowledge had its own set of idiom and allusion. Literal translations or even translations with some degree of context were thwarted by the fact that the authors hadn't themselves been exposed to this area of studies. The perspective about the knowledge contained in both Chinese and Japanese martial arts is changing currently, although there will be some people that will cling to what they think they know until they are phased out. We're all human, ain't we? ;)

FWIW

Mike

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Hello Mike,

If you can find it, the older parallel Japanese - English translation is very much worth having. It is a photographed copy of the original with all the Chinese characters, which I think would be very illuminating, for you, with your extensive background in CMA.

Best regards,

PAG

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

I have already ordered the book, thanks, Peter. It will be interesting to see what additional information I can glean, although... as I pointed out... translating literally without a complete understanding of the idiom of the times, the allegories, the allusions, etc., in relation to the culture can sometimes lead a person to a conclusion that may not be exactly accurate.

In Stevens' work I have also seen no indication that he personally ever trained in the ki and "kei" (essence of what we're calling "kokyu") regimens. So, without implying any personal diminishment of Stevens' abilities, I'm positing (fairly safely, I might add) that Stevens had difficulty with accuracy because he wasn't familiar with the topic.

In Stevens' translation of the essence of Aikido, his one tranlation of the "Eight Powers" is pretty much enough to lay the topic away, even if he translated nothing else. The "Eight Powers" or "Four Poles" are only used in one context, the training of ki and kei (jin)abilities.

The common basal discussion of ki training has to do with combining the ki of heaven with the ki of earth. Even though it is a cosmological concept (the "ki of heaven", the "ki of earth", and Man in the Center or on a bridge between the two), the idea of using the MInd, the Yi, the Will (Ueshiba calls it the "Divine Will" in pretty clear usage, even via translations) in conjunction with the Ki of Heaven, Ki of Earth, etc., again pretty much lays it away. The essence of training yourself to gain ki powers is through subtle exercises of "the ki of heaven" and the "ki of earth" that are related to the mind and fascia-related systems while doing various movements to effect body-wide training of the abilities.

The point I'm getting at is that even without a contextual understanding of what Ueshiba was referring to, the literal or near-literal translations that are available are so solid as to prompt me to bet my house without any reservations whatsoever on the idea that Ueshiba was making pretty standard references to ki-related training. ;) If nothing else, a translator who knew these topics and how to train them, could not have missed the obvious relationship and, if he thought Ueshiba referred to something else, would have been duty-bound to mention the relationship and give reasons for discounting it.

In addition, if you add the overt ki demonstrations by Ueshiba (which mimic old Chinese demonstrations of qi almost exactly), the basic practices contained within his Misogi rituals (again with direct parallels and definitive Chinese Buddhist heritage to support the idea) the obvious is supported again. If I thought a little bit longer and went more completely through all the other markers, I could probably extend the argument with other examples. However, given the number of similar writings and comments, the "harmony of the universe", etc., I don't think it's all that necessary.

My suggestion is that anyone interested in following the Chinese-related clues which abound in Ueshiba's writings (even the Shinto elements appear to be based on the wuji-taiji cosmology) might consider going beyond debating the exact translations of Ueshiba's writings and go to the Chinese martial sources to see where Ueshiba was drawing his inspiration.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Now you've got me curious.
While I agree that there certainly appear some obvious parallels and correlations and translations imply some level of distortion or misinterpretation, where have you found specific historical reference that Ueshiba specifically studied Chinese martial arts or cosmology?
I enjoy it when I am wrong because it means I am learning.

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

I don't think Mike is saying that Ueshiba studied under a Chinese instructor to learn these things. I believe he is saying that through-out asia, there is a way of refering to a method of training the body, and that phrases such as 'uniting the ki of heaven and the ki of earth, through the body of man' signify a connection (however diluted or distant) to these methodologies. So you may have these phrases passed down in items like the Kojiki, or other texts, and Ueshiba would have gotten this exposure there.

I believe even in shinto in general, you can see influences from mainland culture and cosmology...but that is really a discussion for the scholars, which I am not.

Best,
Ron

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Well, wait.... I never said Ueshiba studied Chinese martial arts or cosmology, nor did I imply it. However, a number of posts on these forums (see some of Ellis's stuff) have mentioned the wide relationships and there is a broad literature (not to mention how obvious it is even in casual reading) discussing the borrowing of Chinese Buddhist thought and Chinese cosmology by the Japanese in Buddhism and Shintoism. Shinto was originally an animist belief system, but it changes in many sects to a cosmology based on the wuji, taiji, liangyi, sixiang, etc., of Chinese cosmology. I'll be glad to expand a little bit if you'll tell me where you're losing the thread of thought, Lynn, but I assumed most people understood that the clear parallels between Chinese cosmology and Japanese cognate were there.

If nothing else, there should be an epiphany simply from the fact that the Japanese use the same ki/qi paradigm that is used in China. Ki/qi is not like, for instance, a hair-style, kimono, alphabet or something stand-alone which was borrowed as a convenient term.... Ki/qi is a keystone of the Chinese cosmology; the fact that the Japanese use the term "ki" should imply the rest of the cosmology is there.

Ueshiba's writings directly and indirectly (through Shinto, Buddhist, etc., cognates derived from Chinese cosmology, etc.) use the Chinese cosmology and perspectives.

I once posted the URL of a picture of Tohei standing behind Ueshiba's (seated) right shoulder. I did this to show how the Japanese martial arts have borrowed from the Chinese traditions even down to the smallest details of protocol and tradition, such as a disciple only being pictured in certain ways in relation to the master. The modern times seem to have forgotten the extreme depths of borrowing during the past ages... something Ellis Amdur has posted about a few times, noting particularly the Edo Period, but it was common at other times, as well.

It is common in the Chinese martial arts to show that everything "correct" follows the dictates of the cosmological harmony. To that effect, martial arts allude many of their tenets and principles to Chinese cosmology ("Tai chi huan", "Baguazhang", "Liangyiquan", etc.). Ueshiba's use of the "Ki of Heaven", "Ki of Earth" (do a Google on those terms but use "qi", if you want to see the basic cosmological theories) in relation to the "Divine Will", combining them for power, the "eight powers", etc., are a dead giveaway that Ueshiba is borrowing from the common Chinese references which also refer to elements of ki and power principles.

Is someone "wrong" for not knowing these things, Lynn? No. We have to all learn these things at one time or another; I take pride in how much I learn every year, not in what I already know. ;)

Regards,

Mike

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

FWIW,

I have heard it posited the O-Sensei, given the times in which he grew up and developed his budo, was knowingly or unknowingly a neo-Confucian first, a Buddhist second, and a Shintoist third.

I await the onslaught of disbelief....

Mike

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Appreciate the clarification.

I think I was trying to connect the dots directly with one line instead of connecting the influences from this dot, to that dot, to that dot, to that dot, to Ueshiba.

I guess in someway everything influences everything else if you connect the dots right. Sorta butterfly effect.

Thanks.

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Curse the B.A. in East Asian studies (big breath now,) ::

Taoist Confucianism came to Japan in the fifth century, two or three hundred years before the components of the Kojiki were being sytematically written down. The wuji -taiji system (Tai Ji - Liang Yi- Si Xiang-Ba Gua) underlies the Ichirei Shikon Sangen Hachiriki system with the notable distinction of Sangen (three forms) versus Liang Yi (two powers). "Two becomes three" process theology has an exceedingly broad and deep lineage.

We do not have good evidence as to any precursor manuscripts of the Kojiki, almost all of which were likely lost in the wars of the landed nobility against the militant temples. The present text of the Kojiki dates from the eighth century. Needless to say, it had no footnotes or bibliography.

There is far less culturual isolation in the world from a very early period than some histories would have you believe. The Tao Te Ching lays out this same process philosophy (Tao begets One, the One begets Two, Two begets three, and Three begets the ten thousand things.) "Two becomes three" trinitarian process philosophy in Taoism is related to the development of Maitreyan trinitarian ideas (Trikaya = three bodies or forms) along the Silk road in the third century. Gandhara (Kandahar in Afghanaistan) and Bamian (the blown up buddhas) were primary Hellenic Buddhist centers. The extreme similarity of Trikaya doctrine to Christian trinitarian incarnationalism speaks for itself, and the Christian triniatrian ideas have Hellenic (and Semitic) precursors. Direct parallels lie between these and the Kojiki's creational trinity, Amenominakanushi no kami, Takamimusubi no kami, and Kamimusubi no kami.

Maitreya Buddha is expressly messianic, the first soteric (savior) image in Eastern religious thought, thought to have developed in the firts century, as is Amida (ca. 2d century). Maitreya is seen in China as early as the third century. Amida is seen in China somewhat later. Amida and the ever popular Guanyin/Kwannon are often depicted in a trinity with Seishi (Dai Shi ZhI (e.g. -- (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:C...e_bouddha.jpg).
The Amida's Pure Land paradiase is almost surely Persian in origin, as is the word "paradise."

The lineage of savior traditions has Non-Christian Hellenic and Semitic roots. These may have a direct common source in Persian Zoraoastrianism (or indirectly through Mithraism). Persian culture still maintains its distinctive attachment to savior theology even under Islam, as witness the Shi-ite belief in the Mahdi oir Mehdi, the mysteriously hidden Twelfth Imam whose reappearence will signal the final struggle and saving of all believers. Kojiki Shinto has Suwano as a strong parallel to this line of savior theology.

Lao-tse is dated to sometime in the fourth century. He legendarily passed out of all knowledge in China into the West on his blue ox. Hellenic and Christian thought influenced Taoist and Indian Buddist teaching going east, both of which were passing together over the Silk Road to China between the first and sixth centuries. Not well-enough known is the fact that the first written Mongolian is transcribed in a vertically oriented (Chinese style) Aramaic script (that's what Jesus spoke).

The most notable modern exponents of this long tradition in process thought in the West have been Alfred North Whitehead, Bertrand Russell and more recently, although few know it, Karol Wojtyla, Pope John Paul, II, John Paul was a well-regarded philosopher in phenomenology before he became Pope.

Later Japanese systemization of the Kojiki Shinto attempted to "purge" it of "foreign" elements and interpretations under the Kokugaku (National Studies) in the nineteenth century. Hirata Atsutane, and Motoori Norinaga, were leading figures in this process and have been recurrently criticized for supposed "Christian" influences (as were others for being too "buddhist".)

But as you see here, the connections are far deeper.

FWIW.

Cordially,
Erick Mead

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

Incidentally, I got a copy of the book, "Budo Training in Aikido" (Sugawara Martial Arts Institute) and looked at their translations of Ueshiba's douka.... and incidentally, the douka are *supposed* to contain secret references to the art, so why someone questioned (on another thread) the idea that there were "codewords" being used is a bit startling.

My personal preferences for the translations actually has to go to Stevens, if there is a preference for literal translation. By shifting some of the translations idiom, the Sugawara translation actually obscures some of the references. "Ki" as used by Ueshiba is not meant to be "breath" (one of a number of possible translations), but is used in the etheric sense that would similarly be implied in Chinese commentaries along similar veins... in my opinion. So "heavenly breath", for instance, should be left as "the ki of heaven" as it's tranlated in normal cosmological references. There are other instances where I think the intent is obscured somewhat, but I don't know if it's ever possible to translate deliberately cryptic obscurata into clear English directions. ;^) Still, there is probably an ideal compromise, assuming the translator understands the background and is able to do a clarifying discussion as a preface, etc., for the douka translations.

My opinion, FWIW

Mike

Re: Ki and Technique...
 

I don't know enough real Japanese history to understand exactly what happened and when, but it's pretty obvious that the massive and rather public intermingling and availability of Chinese studies (particularly martial and related) has somehow been obscured at some recent time in history. Whether it was the 19th Century or in the 20th Century, it's hard to tell.

However, there are historians out there that seem to know that there was an open focus on Chinese body-technology and martial arts at earlier times... facts that seem to be almost fanatically denied nowadays in many corners. Western histories often parrot these nationalistic ideas and all it does is slow the search for information and sources, IMO.

FWIW

Mike Sigman