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akiy 01-21-2015 11:48 AM

YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata
 


Here is an #Aikido video of Koichi Tohei performing jo kata.

What are your thoughts on this video?

-- Jun

Janet Rosen 01-21-2015 02:17 PM

Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata
 
We practice this both left and right side; while the target strikes are specific the focus is more on "flow" than when we do Saito Sensei's 31 kata.

nikyu62 01-21-2015 11:59 PM

Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata
 
The first one looked almost exactly like what was taught to me as Jo 1 while the other spinny stuff had elements of Jo 2 but not the same movement. My home dojo in Hawaii was a former Ki Aikido dojo that ended up Yuishinkai.

Janet Rosen 01-22-2015 10:24 AM

Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata
 
Quote:

Steven Shimanek wrote: (Post 341742)
The first one looked almost exactly like what was taught to me as Jo 1 while the other spinny stuff had elements of Jo 2 but not the same movement. My home dojo in Hawaii was a former Ki Aikido dojo that ended up Yuishinkai.

Then we come from the same lineage! My late teacher, Gayle Fillman Sensei's, direct teacher was Richard Kahoalii Sensei in Humboldt County but with ties to the folks in Hawaii and she traveled there several times to train directly with Tohei Sensei both before and after "the split." :)

nikyu62 01-22-2015 10:37 AM

Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 341746)
Then we come from the same lineage! My late teacher, Gayle Fillman Sensei's, direct teacher was Richard Kahoalii Sensei in Humboldt County but with ties to the folks in Hawaii and she traveled there several times to train directly with Tohei Sensei both before and after "the split." :)

Aloha Sempai!

Cliff Judge 01-22-2015 02:44 PM

Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata
 
It looks weird in slow-motion, how he starts to jump back before his forward tsukis are at their apex. And also the backward arch of his head.

sorokod 01-22-2015 04:02 PM

Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata
 
A lot of twirling and jumping, what purpose does this exercise serve?

Janet Rosen 01-22-2015 04:46 PM

Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata
 
Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 341757)
A lot of twirling and jumping, what purpose does this exercise serve?

Presumably the same spiritual/internal training purpose as OSensei's jo.... :-)
http://youtu.be/L88TbONoAXo

sorokod 01-22-2015 04:52 PM

Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata
 
Was Tohei as religious as the founder? What does "spiritual/internal" means?

Janet Rosen 01-22-2015 05:53 PM

Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata
 
O'Sensei's jo misogi was a spiritual practice - calling down the kami - and some believe it was also a part of his internal strength training do develop aiki - CF Ellis Amdur "Hidden in Plain Sight" so the idea of tenshi - "heaven and earth" - as in standing on the bridge btwn was both a spiritual and a martial concept.
You asked the purpose of twirling and leaping by Tohei Sensei and my reply was, and is, he was a direct student of O'Sensei and got it directly from O'Sensei for whatever reasons O'Sensei did it.

nikyu62 01-22-2015 08:10 PM

Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata
 
Tohei Sensei was also a student of Shin Shin Toitsu which was a spiritual discipline, and a lot of the movements he developed were designed to help unify the mind and body. Ki is an example of a spiritual/internal concept, although it can be easily misunderstood. Still working on understanding myself, but I seem to be able to use it at a basic level.

Stephen Sereday 01-22-2015 10:08 PM

Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata
 
The fist part is Jo22-1 (0 - 43 sec). The second part (43sec to end) has Jo22-2 and Jo 22-4 mixed in. I am unfamilair with the second part.

sorokod 01-23-2015 02:13 AM

Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata
 
Quote:

Janet Rosen wrote: (Post 341764)
O'Sensei's jo misogi was a spiritual practice - calling down the kami - and some believe it was also a part of his internal strength training do develop aiki - CF Ellis Amdur "Hidden in Plain Sight" so the idea of tenshi - "heaven and earth" - as in standing on the bridge btwn was both a spiritual and a martial concept.
You asked the purpose of twirling and leaping by Tohei Sensei and my reply was, and is, he was a direct student of O'Sensei and got it directly from O'Sensei for whatever reasons O'Sensei did it.

By the same logic, and given posts #2 and #4, you are "calling down the kami".

Is that the case?

Carsten Möllering 01-23-2015 02:55 AM

Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata
 
As far as I understand it by now, Ueshiba's misogi no jo - i.e. spiritual movement - was different from his aiki jo - i.e. martial movement.
Plus, I understood, that the spiritual practice of Tohei sensei - i.e. Shin shin toitsu dō - was different from that of Ueshiba - i.e. Ōmoto kyo.

So allthough I am not competent to judge the movement of Tohei sensei's jo shown in this vid, I'm pretty sure that it is different from Ueshibas misogi no jo. The more so because Tohei sensei emphasized that he did not follow Ueshiba's spiritual way.

sorokod 01-23-2015 04:59 AM

Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata
 
My understanding is that the founder was a religious person and a part of an organized religious group (Ōmoto kyo) for most of his life. My understanding is that at some point Tohei was part of Shin shin toitsu dō (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinshi...8Ditsu-d%C5%8D) which is described as Japanese Yoga. Calling them and their practices "spiritual" is probably correct and not very useful.

Carsten Möllering 01-23-2015 05:59 AM

Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata
 
I know Shin shin toitsu to some degree because I used to practice from time to time with an actual member of Tempukai who is living in our region. Also my first teacher was a student of this member of the Tempukai and adapted some or their practice.
And yes: It is spiritual. Misogi is an important part of it. Also chanting. And some other Elements at least I understand as "spiritual".

sorokod 01-23-2015 06:29 AM

Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata
 
Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote: (Post 341777)
I know Shin shin toitsu to some degree because I used to practice from time to time with an actual member of Tempukai who is living in our region. Also my first teacher was a student of this member of the Tempukai and adapted some or their practice.
And yes: It is spiritual. Misogi is an important part of it. Also chanting. And some other Elements at least I understand as "spiritual".

I am guessing that Tohei didn't claim to be possessed by a deity the way the founder did, which puts him on a different "spiritual" shelf in my mental library at least.

Can your knowledge of Shin shin toitsu contribute to the understanding of twirling and jumping?

Carsten Möllering 01-23-2015 07:48 AM

Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata
 
Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 341778)
I am guessing that Tohei didn't claim to be possessed by a deity the way the founder did, which puts him on a different "spiritual" shelf in my mental library at least.

Well, yes. That's exactly whtat I tried to say, when I wrote: "So allthough I am not competent to judge the movement of Tohei sensei's jo shown in this vid, I'm pretty sure that it is different from Ueshibas misogi no jo. The more so because Tohei sensei emphasized that he did not follow Ueshiba's spiritual way." Isn't it? ;)

Quote:

Can your knowledge of Shin shin toitsu contribute to the understanding of twirling and jumping?
Nope. Not in the slightest.

Cliff Judge 01-23-2015 08:05 AM

Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata
 
Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 341778)
I am guessing that Tohei didn't claim to be possessed by a deity the way the founder did, which puts him on a different "spiritual" shelf in my mental library at least.

That's really all any Japanese martial art was ever for....to be possessed by a deity and embody her qualities. Until the modern period anyway.

sorokod 01-23-2015 09:01 AM

Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata
 
Quote:

Carsten Möllering wrote: (Post 341780)
Well, yes. That's exactly whtat I tried to say, when I wrote: "So allthough I am not competent to judge the movement of Tohei sensei's jo shown in this vid, I'm pretty sure that it is different from Ueshibas misogi no jo. The more so because Tohei sensei emphasized that he did not follow Ueshiba's spiritual way." Isn't it? ;)

A word that comes to mind that describes the founder - a shaman. A proper chanting, stick twirling, spirit-possessed and vision experiencing shaman.

So I agree and think that the founder was a shaman, and Tohei wasn't.

dps 01-23-2015 01:37 PM

Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata
 
Quote:

Jun Akiyama wrote: (Post 341727)

Here is an #Aikido video of Koichi Tohei performing jo kata.

What are your thoughts on this video?

-- Jun

A film from the 1960's way before he split with Aikikia. O'sensei was probably still alive. I saw this and other films that my Sensei had in 1984. My Sensei was a student of Shuji Maruyama when he taught in Cleveland, Ohio.

dps

Gary David 01-23-2015 03:24 PM

Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata
 
Folks
Looking at this video and having some occasions to train with him here in California in the '70s....what I remember..... Tohei Sensei talked being practical....the quick movement seen in the video relates to movement without counting...which means movement without conscience thought. If you count you have to be in the thinking mind and that slows you down. Moving this fast requires that your footwork be precise or you can't make it happen.....you have fast precise movement without thought. As for the hopping...relates to jumping down, never up. A way to teach the idea and concepts of weight drop.

Talked with another friend of mine who spent time with Tohei Sensei in Hawaii as well as in the San Diego area during the same time frame and he agrees with the above......though this was not all of what Tohei Sensei was about.......

Gary

sorokod 01-25-2015 12:45 PM

Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata
 
Another way to do Jo kata (this is 31 jo kata) quickly, at about 14:50 time mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCeOedrW-AM#t=14m50s

David Norton 01-27-2015 10:12 AM

Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata
 
This looks like the 21-move kata. My instructor (Hagihara Sensei) teaches this.

sorokod 01-27-2015 11:20 AM

Re: YouTube: Koichi Tohei Jo Kata
 
Quote:

David Norton wrote: (Post 341880)
This looks like the 21-move kata. My instructor (Hagihara Sensei) teaches this.

According to Saito sensei, Tohei left Iwama before the founder finalised the form that became the 31 Jo kata. His kata is an early version.


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