Re: What happens AFTER the pin?
Quote:
Quote:
|
Re: What happens AFTER the pin?
Justin,
Your missing the point. BTW, I am looking for a house in arlngton right now. |
Re: What happens AFTER the pin?
Quote:
He did not teach how to do flying high kicks as part of aikido, for example, so one can confidently say that learning how to do flying high kicks is not part of an aikido cirriculum. |
Re: What happens AFTER the pin?
Quote:
Of course, I think many aikidoka would say that kicks to the face are not "aikido". I say kicks to the face and flying high kicks fall under "atemi", and thus may or may not be aikido, depending on the practitioner. |
Re: What happens AFTER the pin?
Quote:
|
Re: What happens AFTER the pin?
Justin wrote:
Quote:
Aikido is NOT about any particular punch, kick, or strike, neither is it exclusive of any punch, kick, or strike. To exclude these things would NOT be aikido, to focus on these things as techniques would NOT be aikido. It is a paradox. (an aikido thing, you wouldn't understand....) Aikido is a principal based and philosophically based art designed to teach us about conflict resolution, peace, harmony and a few other things. I have seen no where on any sensei's website that I have ever seen that identifies with Aikikai that aikido is an efficient means to teach you how to fight effectively. That is NOT to say that you cannot take what you learn in aikido and apply it in a situation. If you truely understood training and most traditional forms of aikido, you would see eventually that is does a good job of teaching us principals that apply universally in situations, but yet, it in itself is NOT primarily concerned with fighting effectiveness. Again, a paradox that one must work out for themselves. When aikido becomes dangerous to you is when you take what you learn in the dojo as gospel or fundamentally and attempt to use the training paradigm on the street. Again, a paradox.... If you focus on training for the street 100% all the time you will never develop long and lasting skills. If you focus solely on developing principals you will never learn how to fight on the street. A paradox. Aikido is good at teaching us principals and fundamentals, and the philosophy of aikido...which are very applicable and very relevant lessons. It is not however, the answer to everything that is! Open your mind, get off the internet, find a dojo, and honestly seek to understand it, if you care. Otherwise you are wasting your time here as your understanding will be limited to questions, theories, and subjections. |
Re: What happens AFTER the pin?
Quote:
Else, we have a hard time saying what is part of aikido. For example, is kicking apples off the tips of swords part of taekwondo becuase it occurs in a few demos? |
Re: What happens AFTER the pin?
Well, we are talking about the founder of the art here...not just some average, backwater, 1st dan...
But hey, the entire subject is a bit silly...so why not take it as far as you can?? Also, many dojo teach a kick to the body or the face while pinning in ikkajo/ikkyo when there is a need to rachet up the force applied in a given situation. But then, if you didn't actually TRAIN in the art, that probably wouldn't be important. Best, Ron |
Re: What happens AFTER the pin?
Quote:
Quote:
If you're saying learning how to do a flying kick to the face is part of aikido, fine, but expect to be taught that no Ueshibas taught that, teach that, and ditto with tons of other techniques, so you're no longer learning aikido as envisioned by the founders of the art, but some MMA-ish mutt (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it isn't the genuine aikido). Quote:
Quote:
|
Re: What happens AFTER the pin?
For example, check out
http://aikidoonline.com/Archives/200...03_doshu3.html This is by Kisshomaru and Moriteru Ueshiba, printed originally in Best Aikido: The Fundamentals. Quote:
|
Re: What happens AFTER the pin?
I did not or do not know any of the Ueshibas. I have trained with and I train under ASU with Saotome Sensei.
Very old 14 sec clip of Saotome using kick. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkdRMZjuUBs Read closely and look at the essensce of what the article you quote is saying. It is talking about principals. You simply cannot take a black and white and fundamental view of aikido. In fact, I believe the word they use is usually, not never. I am not here to nit pick the minor details you seem to troll for looking for technicalities and then providing cross post using google. I admit, you have demonstrated a profound proficiency as a shodan of the cross post Justin! Principally, aikido must be concerned with kicks therefore they exsist within the scope of the art. Punches, grabs, knifes, and sticks also play a part, but we don't train to be boxers, grapplers, knife fighters, or escrima students either. Atemi is atemi...it is all there. Go to a dojo and experience it for yourself I am not saying this sarcastically. Please do go if you are truely interesting in aikido. Anyway, my last post on this, because I obviously losing my bearing and drifting this thread into another area that it does not need to go in. Sorry. |
Re: What happens AFTER the pin?
Kevin,
You would have liked Mochizuki Sensei. He defined aikido in much the same way as you. He told this story in Aiki News # 72, September, 1986: Quote:
Best wishes. David |
Re: Within the Parameters of Aikido?
Aikido is not about techniques but about principles. If you learn the principles you can apply them to any technique you like, be it Judo, Aikido, Jujutsu, Kendo, or even, Karate. If you are smart, you may learn those other arts to steal a few extra principles.
Just my opinion. |
Re: Within the Parameters of Aikido?
The principles the the techniques are two different things. One is philosophy, the other is what is actually physically done.
One could certainly have an argument for saying aikido is everything; kicks, guns, gouging eyes out, cutting off a limb, whatever. But one just needs to look at aikido cirriculum to see what is actually taught in aikido. |
Re: Within the Parameters of Aikido?
No, the principles are the little bits within the techniques that bind them together and make them work. 'Principles' in a martial art is not about philosophy - in my definition.
Philosphy comes after twenty years of training. Then you can talk about it. But, not too much, because the students have come to train, not be lecturered to. Train first, then think, then talk. But don't stop training. When he was a student, do you think Ueshiba was after techniques and the principles hidden within, or philosophy? As far as I understand it, his philosophy did not come from his training but elsewhere. But his skill did. Later, he merged them. |
Re: Within the Parameters of Aikido?
Quote:
b) what if what is actually taught as aikido is not aikido, have you thougt about this for a bit? |
Re: Within the Parameters of Aikido?
I think what is taught is a framework for the priniciples to be understood
Anything goes is not the case; Anything goes using the correct principles of Aikido is more like it. |
Re: Within the Parameters of Aikido?
Justin has a definite rhetorical style, or if you like, a predictable way of arguing. He resorts to arguments from authority, digging up quotes from here and there. Just once I'd like to see him arguing based on his actual experiences on an aikido mat. Its tough to accept such a person's view on what is and what is not orthodox aikido. One might as well accept a definition of Catholicism from an ayatollah.
The principles of aikido are not philosophy; they are the reason I am able to move someone much larger and heavier. I don't mean talk of universal love and the kami. I mean things like musubi, the center to center connection, the powerful connection to the ground, and so on. None of these are "philosophy." I speak as someone whose college degree was in philosophy. Musubi is much more real than talk of the categorical imperative and the summum bonum. |
Re: Within the Parameters of Aikido?
Quote:
You may have read Gozo Shioda's account of finding himself trapped, during WWII, in a building. Believing that he was about to find himself in a fight for his life, he armed himself with a broken bottle. I don't remember if he had to use it, but no doubt he would have and that would have been a real master's aikido. Best to you. David |
Re: Within the Parameters of Aikido?
Quote:
One can also read the words of the Founder, his son, and his son's son to see what the people closest to aikido say about aikido. |
Re: Within the Parameters of Aikido?
Quote:
You need to brush up on what an argument from authority actually is. That is saying 'X is correct because, and only because, X is an authority'. Saying 'X is correct and X is an authority' is not a fallacy. Coupled with the direct evidence of observing what is and is not taught in aikido classes, it is quite valid to say that learning how to do a flying side kick is not taught in aikido classes. I could see why some want to dismiss their quotes, however. |
Re: Within the Parameters of Aikido?
Justin, does your assertion include ukemi skills? Some styles practice responses to various kick attacks, and in order to practice those responses, one might assume that (basic) lessons on how to deliver those kicks might be part of aikido practice in those styles.
|
Re: Within the Parameters of Aikido?
Chiba shihan makes it a point that his students attack properly, and that includes knowing how to kick properly. As Peter Goldsbury wrote: "On another occasion we were practicing techniques from kicks aimed at the lower stomach. Mr. Chiba was very unhappy with his uke's attacks and so roles were changed and he became uke. Sensei's kick was very fast and one landed in the crotch: the uke crumpled up and we male students keenly felt the possible effects on our reproductive potential." So in a dojo run by a senior and well respected uchideshi of Morihei, kicking was taught. Between Chiba and Justin Smith, I know who i would rather believe.
|
Re: Within the Parameters of Aikido?
It is self evident that the aikido of Kisshomaru and Moriteru is not quite the aikido of their forebear. Morihei liked kiai and atemi; the younger Ueshibas did not. Morihei worked intensely with sword and jo, his son and grandson do not. Morihei had many waza that are no longer taught in Hombu. He could do the push trick and the jo trick.
So are Kisshomaru and Moriteru the final word on aikido? Only in a political sense. In a technical sense, we can look around and find many teachers, direct students of Morihei, who each have valid and powerful versions of aikido, that are not quite the same as Kisshomaru's. We have the freedom to chose what tradition—such as those of Saito, Saotome, Yamaguchi, Chiba— that we want to follow. I wonder how aware Justin is of just how varied aikido is? Or maybe he would be, if he actually spent some time learning aikido. |
Re: Within the Parameters of Aikido?
Quote:
So there's a certain amount of wiggle room, but does this mean "Aikido can have anything we want it to"? Maybe; maybe not. If its distinct identity is compromised, then maybe not. I feel very strongly thattinkering with a system is something one should be careful about. |
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:22 AM. |
Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.