Aikijujutsu - ow ow ow
I just saw a demonstration of aikijujutsu and a lot of it looked familiar. It seemed, to my untrained eye, to move from the grab, to uke's wrist, to the elbow, to the shoulder and sometimes the back. Each successive twist incorporating pain. It was a real eye-opener to me.
There were a lot of irimi nage type moves but they didn't look as familiar to me as the wrist and even foot-grabs :eek: . The sensei Kuyama sp? ( kee ama) showed the final techniques but everything looked much more painful than anything I've done in the dojo. Is this where O Sensei started? |
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It's one of many elements that O Sensei used to form Aikido.
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There are three basic levels to the parent art of Aikido, Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. The second and third levels are more sophisticated than level one which are straight hard jujutsu techniques. I believe O Sensei drew and modified techniques from level two and probably did some level three on people without explaining to them what he was doing. The article at the following link has a good explanation.
http://www.atlantamartialarts.com/styles/daitotryu.htm Best wishes, |
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I would say I don't see anything on that page that can't be practiced in Aikido and actually is in some circles. Nor do I think that some of O'Sensei students didn't get it with level three. Daito Ryu is great stuff but it's not a deeper well than Aikido no matter how much some proponents may like to claim that. It's goals are simply different. Not goals that I am particularly interested in, but others are and that's fine as long as it does not become some kind put down game over something that is really very subjective. :cool: |
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Best, Chris |
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Charles Hill |
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Charles Hill, That might be, but facts remain: Morihei did issue Daito Ryu licenses in the 1930-th. Sokaku Takeda did visit the Takuma Hisas dojo and acknowledged Ueshibas teachings and taught from there.
/J |
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Has anyone else heard of Kuyama sensei? I've never met him but he's supposed to be extremely well regarded. Two people I know, one is my doctor, say he goes to Washington, D.C., from time to time to train the Secret Service. Around here he's a gardener.
BTW, as impressive as aikijujutsu appears I'm certain I don't want to pay anyone to inflict that level of pain on me. After watching this demonstration I can understand why ancient practitioners require absolute dedication from their disciples. Pacifists need not apply. I would like to learn some of the ground pin techniques as an additional idea but only if I'm never uke. |
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It is my understanding that O'Sensei studied a multitude of martial arts. To say one over another had more influence, noone could really say. It is very subjective. That aside, many of the locks; kotegaeshi, nikkyo, and so on are also found in other arts such as jujitsu, karate, even tae kwon do. They are not exclusive to any one art. Who knows where O'Sensei got his original inspiration from. Does it really matter?
As far as what can or cannot be practiced in an Aikido class; this is a very subjective issue. Depending on the dojo or association you belong to it may mean that you do not have atemi, or you do not kick in your aplication of a technique, ukes may not resist at all. There are more opinions than people on this subject. |
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Without going into a great deal of yak, there are, essentially, two great pillars of aikido: Daito Ryu and Omoto Kyo. Chris Li, btw, has trained quite extensively in aikido and also in the main line of Daito Ryu. And, yes, given some of what went on during the early years of the propagation of aikido, it *does* matter to many of us. Regards, |
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You can argue the evidence, but it's pretty much been hashed out already. Morihei Ueshiba's time in training with Sokaku Takeda pretty much eclipses the time he had in any other art, so much so that study of the other arts amount to what is really dabbling. All of the pre-war students (Shioda, Tomoki, Mochizuki, Shirata, etc.) were ranked in Daito-ryu, from Ueshiba. Ueshiba himself had no real teaching licenses of consequence in arts other than Daito-ryu. What Ueshiba was teaching in 1935 was so close to what Takeda was teaching that Takeda was able to continue directly with the students of the Asahi newspaper dojo when he took it over instead of having to reteach the curriculum. Further, Morihiro Saito testified that what Ueshiba taught him at Iwama after the war most closely resembled what was represented in the 1938 technical manual "Budo" published by Ueshiba before the war. Stan Pranin's done most of the research, check it out - there's really very little on the other side of the argument. Best, Chris |
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Unrelated Q to those with DR Knowledge:
Has Dayto Ryu been more preserved in its original (Takeda's) form? , in contrast to Aikido's Multitude of Branchs and styles , over the course of time? |
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Charles HIll |
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Best, Chris |
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I think one of the central differences was the attachment of a (at least semi) Classical art to kata, and Ueshiba's wish to transcend the old ways and teach something new. I also think that the Omoto-kyo and his own personal attachment to misogi have something to do with it. It is a fascinating area for speculation and study. I'll let you know if I get any revelations... :) Quote:
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Best, Ron |
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Of course, I will freely admit to spending a great deal of time training in Iaido/Iai-jutsu, so I am not really one to talk. :D |
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Some people do so just because of opportunity to learn new things and to get new perspectives. What I don't have respect for are those who either linger in self doubt or who are chasing the "holy grail". What bothers me the most are those who are trying to gain personal invincibility of some kind . I've spent ten years doing aikido and I plan to do it for the rest of my life but I think that if you meet a great martial artist and you have an opportunity to learn something different that could add to your overall knowledge, that may be legitimate. We asked our shihan, Kato sensei if it was wrong to cross train and he said that whatever we did with our own time was our business. I took that to mean it was alright. By the way, with that example that you gave, why did you cross train with Kondo sensei? There were a lot of Aikidoists you could have been with at the Expo. If you don't mind sharing that with us, you might give me another legitimate reason to cross train in Daito-ryu that I didn't think of! :) Best, |
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The Daito ryu training also fills a longing for my younger days and the down and dirty grappling I did poorly then...and perhaps still do poorly now! Did I ever say I like chokes? :D The way I figure it...train in what you like...and leave it at that. Oh, and I can definately say that you won't get the same information at large public seminars or videos that you get in more private settings. So basing all of your information from one venue might be a mistake... Ron |
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the rest of the classes just because he obviously had a lot of enthusiasm for what he was doing so it made the classes fun and was interesting to see some of the connections to Aikido, most of the other students were from Aikido so there was none of the nonsense you some times get in some of the Aikido classes at inter-style events with students who come to train only with their teacher or a senior teacher in their own organization. Now if he or someone else of that caliber taught at a school down the street from my house, I might have to think hard about it. Being that iffy even in that ideal case indicates to me that is not where my heart lies. |
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I completely agree with you here. I just wonder, though, if I am not jumping the gun due to my relative unfamiliarity with Daito Ryu. For example, I read somewhere that Kondo Sensei is careful with what he shows in public. Maybe what he does in the dojo with his own students looks more flowing. I disagree with the idea that the difference is due to personal style. Even with the shihan who seem to me most DR-like, Inamura shihan and Arikawa shihan, still look more like O'Sensei than any DR I have seen. I think that (at least until proven otherwise) Morihei Ueshiba was technically innovative, even in the beginning/pre-war. Charles Hill |
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If I eventually dropped karate because I didn't care for spending my time practicing smashing up peoples bodies with my fists and feet, I am probably not a good candidate for spending time on DR's outer practice of breaking joints, smashing bodis and such to get to the good stuff. Much better to leave that stuff with students who have an interest in preserving it. |
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Kodo Horikawa and Yukiyoshi Sagawa were technically innovative in many ways - still, nobody questions that what they were doing was Daito-ryu. Best, Chris |
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