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graham christian 03-03-2011 07:55 PM

Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind
 
Hi. This is a post to explain what I feel is a not very well understood concept of 'martial' as in martial arts and indeed in martial training.

The confusion lies in a lack of differenciation between martial application and fighting. In competitive martial arts you can see the difference between the two and thus see if you study it how the martial or indeed warriors always rise to the top of the sport whilst the fighters get left behind, looking mean, talking big, but nonetheless stuck in themselves.

I say this because I have heard many times people talk about maintaining the integrity of their art and to remind them the integrity is undermined once you are led to believe that it's to do with fighting.

To understand what I mean let me introduce you to the warrior mind or mentality.

The warrior mentality is one of learning, really studying, the principles and techniques of his 'way' or 'jutsu' and continually polishing his skills and thus improving. A discipline.

Now a fighter does the same.

So far so good. The difference lies purely and squarely in purpose.

The fighter lives in fear, the fighting mind is based on fear and thoughts of 'what if?' To that degree a form of paranoia. This may even rise to the dizzy heights of anger and thus a person who wants to prove something, to show the world how strong and tough they are etc.etc. Having said that you can come across very strong and even very clever fighters.

The warrior is a different kettle of fish completely for he has no purpose of fighting. His purpose is a much higher purpose. It is one of being the best he can be on his chosen path.

To do this he studies hard, he practices hard, he developes necessary skills and perfects them and improves so that when called for he can use those skills, excecute those skills to the best of his ability.

Even if a warrior accepted a challenge due to some code or other he would see it merely as a test of his skill, a test of his maintaining of integrity and thus application of his art. He is therefore not interested in fighting or proving or even maiming or killing the opponent, he just knows he will enter and execute his skill. As to what the opponent thinks, says, appears to be or even deserves is of no concern.

This is the warrior mind, it reaches the opponent before anything has even occured and thus many opponents fold and there is no fight for they know there is no tricking this person or scaring him for he has no fear as such and only has a clear mind, a focussed mind, an immovable mind.

In life you can see the person who faces problems calmly, with acceptance. He looks for the best way to solve it and through disciplined application resolves it. This is the mind of the warrior. O n the other hand you have the fighting mind approach. This person gets angry with the problem, wants to fight it or even blame someone or something and fight that. If the fighting mind feels the problem is too big it goes into fear and runs away. Once again in life the person who does this pretends therefore it's not a problem, (for they have run away from accepting it is) and end up merely taking potshots at anyone else who doesn't have a problem with it or who is therefore more capable in that area than them.

This is also why a warrior in a competitive ring respects his opponent whether he 'wins' or 'loses' for his aim is not to destroy or belittle or any other proof. It's just two people being the best they can be. Thus the 'winner' who is a warrior respects the 'loser' too.

Hopefully this will help some make sense of what not only O'Sensei meant in some of his statements but also many other great teachers.

If nothing else I hope this is at least food for thought in your attitude towards training.

Regards.G.

Tony Wagstaffe 03-04-2011 10:30 AM

Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind
 
It's just two people being the best they can be. Thus the 'winner' who is a warrior respects the 'loser' too.

We do.....;)

SeiserL 03-04-2011 12:38 PM

Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind
 
IMHO, a warrior's mind is/includes a fighter's mind.

But a fighter's mind is not necessarily a warrior's mind.

Its a matter of ego.

guest1234567 03-04-2011 01:19 PM

Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind
 
Thanks Graham..
Lynn I don't think so, a warrior's mind is not necessarily aimed to fight, the fight is his work. But fighter's mind is always thinking about fight, about competition and to win..

Demetrio Cereijo 03-04-2011 01:22 PM

Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind
 
I'm with Lynn.

guest1234567 03-04-2011 01:23 PM

Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind
 
Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: (Post 278302)
I'm with Lynn.

good for you..

Tony Wagstaffe 03-04-2011 02:59 PM

Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind
 
Royal Navy motto........ Si vis pacem bellum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si_vis_pacem,_para_bellum

Demetrio Cereijo 03-04-2011 03:10 PM

Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind
 
Quote:

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: (Post 278310)
Royal Navy motto........ Si vis pacem bellum

Trans.: Hello Sailor

:D

jurasketu 03-04-2011 03:13 PM

Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind
 
I'm with Lynn too...

I would also like to add this thought...

For me the difference between a warrior and a fighter is who they fight FOR - not necessarily their actual skills or prowess.

A Warrior stands ready to fight to protect others and see that as an important part of their "duty".

A Fighter fights first and foremost for their own self and doesn't think its their job or duty to protect others (even though they might if it provided an opportunity to fight and feed their ego).

Robin

Hellis 03-04-2011 03:25 PM

Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind
 
Graham

With all due respect I consider the following a large pile of crap.

Quote:

The fighter lives in fear, the fighting mind is based on fear and thoughts of 'what if?' To that degree a form of paranoia. This may even rise to the dizzy heights of anger and thus a person who wants to prove something, to show the world how strong and tough they are etc.etc. Having said that you can come across very strong and even very clever fighters
Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

sakumeikan 03-04-2011 03:56 PM

Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind
 
Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: (Post 278311)
Trans.: Hello Sailor

:D

Demetrio,
Are you making me an offer I can scarcely refuse? Hello sailor is a catchy phrase not to be quoted to often unless you are lonely and need a bit of companionship.
Cheers, Joe.

graham christian 03-04-2011 07:26 PM

Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind
 
Quote:

Carina Reinhardt wrote: (Post 278301)
Thanks Graham..
Lynn I don't think so, a warrior's mind is not necessarily aimed to fight, the fight is his work. But fighter's mind is always thinking about fight, about competition and to win..

Hi Carina, you're welcome.

Yes, this is the main point.

Regards.G.

graham christian 03-04-2011 07:28 PM

Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind
 
Quote:

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: (Post 278278)
It's just two people being the best they can be. Thus the 'winner' who is a warrior respects the 'loser' too.

We do.....;)

Tony, welcome back.

Regards.G.

graham christian 03-04-2011 07:33 PM

Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind
 
Quote:

Lynn Seiser wrote: (Post 278296)
IMHO, a warrior's mind is/includes a fighter's mind.

But a fighter's mind is not necessarily a warrior's mind.

Its a matter of ego.

Lynn. Thanks for the response. I would say a warriors mind may include some ego until he is enlightened but a fighting mind IS ego.

Respect.G.

graham christian 03-04-2011 07:36 PM

Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind
 
Quote:

Robin Johnson wrote: (Post 278312)
I'm with Lynn too...

I would also like to add this thought...

For me the difference between a warrior and a fighter is who they fight FOR - not necessarily their actual skills or prowess.

A Warrior stands ready to fight to protect others and see that as an important part of their "duty".

A Fighter fights first and foremost for their own self and doesn't think its their job or duty to protect others (even though they might if it provided an opportunity to fight and feed their ego).

Robin

Robin. I agree with that differenciation also as I would say one is selfish and the other operates from the spirit of selflessness.

Regards.G.

graham christian 03-04-2011 07:39 PM

Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind
 
Quote:

Henry Ellis wrote: (Post 278314)
Graham

With all due respect I consider the following a large pile of crap.

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Henry. 'C'est la vie.'

Regards.G.

David Orange 03-04-2011 08:16 PM

Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 278225)
To understand what I mean let me introduce you to the warrior mind or mentality.

Graham,

Have you ever been in the military or worked as a law enforcement officer?

I haven't, and I would never kid myself that I even comprehend the "warrior mind" or that I could employ it. I would certainly never call myself "a warrior." To me, when people without military or police backgrounds talk about "warrior mind," they might as well dress in Gandalf robes and go about talking with Aslan: fantasy, in other words.

I think you mean well, but you should pay more attention to Sir T-Rex. In fact, I think you ought to drop all your teaching and go and ask to be his student. If you train with him as long as we're blessed to have him among us, you might earn the right to call yourself a warrior. But by then, I doubt that you would.

Best to you.

David

Hellis 03-05-2011 02:09 AM

Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 278333)
Henry. 'C'est la vie.'

Regards.G.

Graham

Have you been watching Delboy again ?? :D

Henry Ellis
Silence is Approval
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

dps 03-05-2011 03:09 AM

Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 278225)
The warrior mentality is

A romantic

(marked by the imaginative or emotional appeal of what is heroic, adventurous, remote, mysterious, or idealized ; http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/romantic)

notion

(impression: a vague idea in which some confidence is placed; http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&d...&ved=0CBQQkAE).

dps

Marc Abrams 03-05-2011 06:48 AM

Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind
 
The poster's choice of terms is what gets him in trouble. David and others raise the important point in regards to any REAL experience with being a warrior. Maybe the poster should spend some time speaking to some real warriors, then he could gain some understanding as to Henry's very succinct and to-the-point analysis.

There are important distinctions between the two types of "minds" that the poster talked about. That being said, his choice of terms was lacking at best....

marc abrams

Tony Wagstaffe 03-05-2011 07:40 AM

Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind
 
Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: (Post 278311)
Trans.: Hello Sailor

:D

Heeelloooo ducky......!!

Mark Freeman 03-05-2011 07:41 AM

Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind
 
Quote:

David Orange wrote: (Post 278334)
Graham,

Have you ever been in the military or worked as a law enforcement officer?

I haven't, and I would never kid myself that I even comprehend the "warrior mind" or that I could employ it. I would certainly never call myself "a warrior." To me, when people without military or police backgrounds talk about "warrior mind," they might as well dress in Gandalf robes and go about talking with Aslan: fantasy, in other words.

Hi David,

I'm not sure that the question you pose to Graham is a fair one. In that being a member of the forces or a LEO does not automatically give anyone the 'warrior' mindset. It does (potentially) put you in the line of fire in your daily work, with the opportunity to display and act in a 'warrior' like way. I do agree that those in the armed forces may well be the closest to actually achieving the true warrior mindset, in that life and death may be the choice they make to give or take away in an instant.

"In Search of the Warrior Spirit" by Richard Strozzi Heckler is a good book I read on this, have you seen it?

I just watched an interview with Geoff Thompson that David S posted here recently. He is someone I would say is neither soldier or LEO but I would quite happily judge as a having a warrior mindset.

I'm with you, I don't kid myself that I am a warrior (although I do strive to be a peaceful one:) ). But from a purely Aikido point of view, my teacher is constantly berating students who are not able to do what he is demonstrating, because they are employing a 'fighting mind'. So I get where Graham is coming from with this point. It is impossible to recreate what my teacher is doing with any desire to 'fight' as 'non-resistance' is the goal and ultimately the means of control over the other.

It is an interesting subject and I think Graham is doing us a service by positing points for discussion. I smile when he is dismissed out of hand, mainly because there is truth in what he says, it's not always in the language that everyone wants to read it in.

regards

Mark

graham christian 03-05-2011 07:57 AM

Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind
 
Quote:

David Orange wrote: (Post 278334)
Graham,

Have you ever been in the military or worked as a law enforcement officer?

I haven't, and I would never kid myself that I even comprehend the "warrior mind" or that I could employ it. I would certainly never call myself "a warrior." To me, when people without military or police backgrounds talk about "warrior mind," they might as well dress in Gandalf robes and go about talking with Aslan: fantasy, in other words.

I think you mean well, but you should pay more attention to Sir T-Rex. In fact, I think you ought to drop all your teaching and go and ask to be his student. If you train with him as long as we're blessed to have him among us, you might earn the right to call yourself a warrior. But by then, I doubt that you would.

Best to you.

David

David. Interesting perspective.

I suggest you read it again. I have read some of your posts and see you have many stories of your travels in new york. Your meeting with various potentially dangerous situations and how you faced them, what you did, and the results that happened. All may I say without having to resort to 'fighting' yet a good example of what I wrote.

Maybe you put yourself down too much.

Your comments comparing military and police to is very vague as some will have but many won't, hence you end up with special forces and elite units. These are the ones who can raise themselves to warrior mind.

I have done much doorman and security work thank you and indeed have trained some policemen thank you very much. In fact may I inform you that a friend of mine who works in the police force came to me for training and the precise things we worked on not only saved his life but also led to him getting rewarded with a bravery medal, followed by two more since I might add.

However, I am more pleased by helping others to improve their lives with what I learn in Aikido and bring about a little more harmony, it's much more fun.

You seem to have more street experiences than many who post, I wonder if you have had as many as me? I worked in portobello market for ten years in london and have seen many sights and come across many situations. As I have said previously the world is my dojo and in those dangerous situations I have encountered over the years from gangs to guns to idiots and thugs it's been an opportunity to face without the fighting mind but to apply my training and thus I learn the true reality of what I teach my friend.

If you don't believe the principles are real and effective then that's your perogative. Who am I to judge you?

Harmony my friend is all powerful and comes from compassion and love and kindness and the disciplines of such. Hopefully one day you will see why.

Regards.G.

graham christian 03-05-2011 08:02 AM

Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind
 
Quote:

Henry Ellis wrote: (Post 278347)
Graham

Have you been watching Delboy again ?? :D

Henry Ellis
Silence is Approval
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Henry. I prefer david carradine in kung fu although I on the comedy front I prefer fawty towers.

Regards.G.

Mark Freeman 03-05-2011 08:04 AM

Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind
 
Hi all,

this short film 'Bouncer' clipped from Geoff Thompson's site and starring the always excellent Ray Winstone is well worth a viewing (as long as you can stand a bit of earthy language).

http://www.geoffthompson.com/Bouncer.asp

Watch it and let me know where and who, if anyone, is the warrior / fighter.

I think this is a brilliant, thought provoking little film that is pertinent to the thread...enjoy

regards

Mark


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