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-   -   Tokimune Takeda - Aiki Kuden and Hiden (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24406)

Chris Li 07-09-2015 07:29 PM

Tokimune Takeda - Aiki Kuden and Hiden
 
New blog post, teachings from the oral transmission and personal notes of Sokaku Takeda's son Tokimune Takeda!

Tokimune Takeda - Aiki Kuden and Hiden - “The essential principles of Daito-ryu are Love and Harmony”.

Enjoy!

Chris

NagaBaba 07-10-2015 12:20 PM

Re: Tokimune Takeda - Aiki Kuden and Hiden
 
“The essential principles of Daito-ryu are Love and Harmony”
“The goal of spreading Daito-ryu is ‘Harmony and Love’,

I'd love to hear it directly from Sokaku Takeda toothless mouth :) Looks like copy-paste from M.Ueshiba teaching.

JW 07-10-2015 02:06 PM

Re: Tokimune Takeda - Aiki Kuden and Hiden
 
Quote:

Szczepan Janczuk wrote: (Post 344214)
Looks like copy-paste from M.Ueshiba teaching.

Interesting possibility...

It's one of those things where some corroborating data can help rule it out. But you may be right, we can never be sure. One thing -- didn't the Sagawa dojo have similar stuff posted earlier? If so, maybe Takeda had some core message like this, which the different branches picked up from him.

I was thinking about Takeda-- he saw people do bad things-- from a lot of different angles (per Amdur's HIPS). If his known acts of public violence were indeed during events of unprovoked attack by others against him, maybe he really did develop a vision for a better world. He spent so much time teaching police-- maybe because he saw them as what they ideally are, a way to have society protected from those who make the world bad.

The fact that he had a temper means nothing to me in terms of his vision. In fact both his temper and his proposed vision for a better world may have been fostered by the same experiences of witnessing bad things.

Chris Li 07-10-2015 03:31 PM

Re: Tokimune Takeda - Aiki Kuden and Hiden
 
Quote:

Jonathan Wong wrote: (Post 344219)
Interesting possibility...

It's one of those things where some corroborating data can help rule it out. But you may be right, we can never be sure. One thing -- didn't the Sagawa dojo have similar stuff posted earlier? If so, maybe Takeda had some core message like this, which the different branches picked up from him.

I was thinking about Takeda-- he saw people do bad things-- from a lot of different angles (per Amdur's HIPS). If his known acts of public violence were indeed during events of unprovoked attack by others against him, maybe he really did develop a vision for a better world. He spent so much time teaching police-- maybe because he saw them as what they ideally are, a way to have society protected from those who make the world bad.

The fact that he had a temper means nothing to me in terms of his vision. In fact both his temper and his proposed vision for a better world may have been fostered by the same experiences of witnessing bad things.

The Sagawa Dojo scroll appears here.

It may be that Tokimune Takeda was attempting to capitalize on the popularity of Morihei Ueshiba's Aikido.

On the other hand, if we take Tokimune at face value then it may be that the basic elements of Morihei Ueshiba's thought were already in place rather than being a completely original creation.

There's more of Tokimune's notes on his father's teaching yet to come, with material that points to a much deeper involvement with esoteric Buddhism, especially Shingon, than was previously believed. There are also a series of books published in Japan that argues for that point of view and suggests that there may be some foundation for Tokimune's statement.

Best,

Chris

oisin bourke 07-15-2015 10:08 AM

Re: Tokimune Takeda - Aiki Kuden and Hiden
 
Quote:

Jonathan Wong wrote: (Post 344219)
Interesting possibility...

It's one of those things where some corroborating data can help rule it out. But you may be right, we can never be sure. One thing -- didn't the Sagawa dojo have similar stuff posted earlier? If so, maybe Takeda had some core message like this, which the different branches picked up from him.

I was thinking about Takeda-- he saw people do bad things-- from a lot of different angles (per Amdur's HIPS). If his known acts of public violence were indeed during events of unprovoked attack by others against him, maybe he really did develop a vision for a better world. He spent so much time teaching police-- maybe because he saw them as what they ideally are, a way to have society protected from those who make the world bad.

The fact that he had a temper means nothing to me in terms of his vision. In fact both his temper and his proposed vision for a better world may have been fostered by the same experiences of witnessing bad things.

One thing worth noting is That Sokaku stressed that daito ryu (or the inner "oshiki uchi" techniques at any event) were essentially defensive in nature and should not be used offensively. They also should be measured: the idea was to render an assailant so that they were no longer a threat Straight off, you have an ethical stance, or one that at least cultivates a certain attitude or character.

JW 07-15-2015 06:54 PM

Re: Tokimune Takeda - Aiki Kuden and Hiden
 
Quote:

Oisin Bourke wrote: (Post 344270)
One thing worth noting is That Sokaku stressed that daito ryu (or the inner "oshiki uchi" techniques at any event) were essentially defensive in nature and should not be used offensively...

Yes, and the Sagawa scroll suggests the same sentiment.
Like Chris said, if we go at face value, the idea of "being peaceful" goes back to Takeda or before. I guess the thing to wonder is: is this all just words that budo people are "supposed" to say? In some circles you have to recite the party line to be seen as legit.

As I said, I personally tend to think the whole DR lineage is indeed an effort to produce a budo that is guided by the desire for an end to violence. But there is plenty of room for argument there. For instance, what are the kakete techniques doing in the Takumakai if the art is for defence only? I think it is explainable (especially at the 1:10 ratio that Mori cites) but it does muddy the waters.

oisin bourke 07-16-2015 02:52 AM

Re: Tokimune Takeda - Aiki Kuden and Hiden
 
Quote:

Jonathan Wong wrote: (Post 344277)
Yes, and the Sagawa scroll suggests the same sentiment.
Like Chris said, if we go at face value, the idea of "being peaceful" goes back to Takeda or before. I guess the thing to wonder is: is this all just words that budo people are "supposed" to say? In some circles you have to recite the party line to be seen as legit.

As I said, I personally tend to think the whole DR lineage is indeed an effort to produce a budo that is guided by the desire for an end to violence. But there is plenty of room for argument there. For instance, what are the kakete techniques doing in the Takumakai if the art is for defence only? I think it is explainable (especially at the 1:10 ratio that Mori cites) but it does muddy the waters.

Well, I see the oshiki uchi techniques as the exemplar of this defensive use of "aiki". It's clear that Sokaku added a large body of techniques to this. he's referred to as the "chuko no so" which is translated as "the founder of the renaissance". This was a common term in the late Edo/early meiji periods to refer to people who took the core of a traditional ryu (be it martial arts, dance whatever) and modified it to make it more relevant to current demands.

Oh, and the idea of budo/bujutsu being arts of cultivating peace and character is fairly old.In fact, Karl Friday (I believe) has argued this is the driving force behind a lot of ryu, not martial efficiency. At any rate, a lot of ryu certainly have relevant teachings

Chris Li 08-12-2015 06:04 PM

Re: Tokimune Takeda - Aiki Kuden and Hiden
 
Now available in Romanian, courtesy of Aikido Jurnal. The original English version is available on the Aikido Sangenkai blog.

Best,

Chris


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