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-   -   Kotegaeshi, help please (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22046)

Steven 10-03-2013 05:52 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Bill Danosky wrote: (Post 330520)
Can't say for all styles, but in Yoshinkan it's hard to get Kote Gaeshi unless you can get uke to take at least one step. There is a noteable exception, because Kote Gaeshi is one of the few techniques we have that can be applied from the inside. That works at contact distance, but it's a harsh one to practice.

Really?!? We don't have that problem.

Bill Danosky 10-03-2013 09:26 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Maybe we are doing it wrong- we usually take uke on a short trip before his fall. We drag him out a step past his balance on Ichi (linear) techniques and halfway around the block on Ni (turning). They get sick of going one direction just in time for the punch in the face and reversal.

Guess I don't have to explain ichi and ni to you, Miranda Sensei!

Bill Danosky 10-03-2013 09:34 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Steven Miranda wrote: (Post 330526)
Really?!? We don't have that problem.

I'm probably not alone in wanting to hear if something can be improved there. Access is one of the biggest benefits of a forum like this.

Steven 10-04-2013 08:58 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Bill Danosky wrote: (Post 330536)
Maybe we are doing it wrong- we usually take uke on a short trip before his fall. We drag him out a step past his balance on Ichi (linear) techniques and halfway around the block on Ni (turning). They get sick of going one direction just in time for the punch in the face and reversal.

Guess I don't have to explain ichi and ni to you, Miranda Sensei!

Not wrong. Just different. :)

Steven 10-04-2013 08:59 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Bill Danosky wrote: (Post 330538)
I'm probably not alone in wanting to hear if something can be improved there. Access is one of the biggest benefits of a forum like this.

I prefer a real dojo with a live body myself. Come visit us the weekend of 10/18-19 for our annual seminar here in Sacramento. :)

Bill Danosky 10-05-2013 10:28 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Steven Miranda wrote: (Post 330600)
I prefer a real dojo with a live body myself. Come visit us the weekend of 10/18-19 for our annual seminar here in Sacramento. :)

Me, too. But I have been trying to get to California for 20 years and haven't made it yet. I get as far as the Rocky mountains and my vacation time just leaks away.

Thank you for the invitation. We have hosted Robert Mustard, Joe Thambu and Jim Jeannette Senseis. Amos Parker Shihan used to come to Indianapolis sometimes, but we will not be taking those lessons again, sadly. That was all before Kit Hathaway Sensei transferred to Atlanta, GA. So we will probably be travelling for training from here out. I would love to have your signature on my Yoshinkan Card.

Steven 10-06-2013 09:13 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Bill Danosky wrote: (Post 330614)
Me, too. But I have been trying to get to California for 20 years and haven't made it yet. I get as far as the Rocky mountains and my vacation time just leaks away.

Thank you for the invitation. We have hosted Robert Mustard, Joe Thambu and Jim Jeannette Senseis. Amos Parker Shihan used to come to Indianapolis sometimes, but we will not be taking those lessons again, sadly. That was all before Kit Hathaway Sensei transferred to Atlanta, GA. So we will probably be travelling for training from here out. I would love to have your signature on my Yoshinkan Card.

Visited Kit earlier this year. But this is about kotogaeshi so I won't hijack the thread. You're welcome anytime you can make it.

Cliff Judge 10-07-2013 07:37 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Bill Danosky wrote: (Post 330536)
Maybe we are doing it wrong- we usually take uke on a short trip before his fall. We drag him out a step past his balance on Ichi (linear) techniques and halfway around the block on Ni (turning). They get sick of going one direction just in time for the punch in the face and reversal.

Guess I don't have to explain ichi and ni to you, Miranda Sensei!

Do you atemi or something else to "break his intent" before you try to lead him off balance?

Because I think sometimes atemi puts uke back on balance.

Bill Danosky 10-07-2013 11:49 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 330673)
Do you atemi or something else to "break his intent" before you try to lead him off balance? Because I think sometimes atemi puts uke back on balance.

Yeah, that can happen. We typically use two atemis in Kote Gaeshi- One on the entry and one after the turn (whether it's a pivot or body change). I believe the rationale is that most people are going to recoil from a strong strike to the face, which begins the kuzushi. Another reason may be that it gives them something to think about while you are getting your wristlock firmed up.

Basia Halliop 10-07-2013 12:53 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Isn't the purpose of the wrist twist to lock the wrist up and take out the slack so you can use it to connect to the core (via the elbow then shoulder, etc), more or less? In which case uke making their wrist stiff does part of your work for you and you can just skip that step...?? Why would it make it harder?

Bill Danosky 10-07-2013 01:46 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Basia Halliop wrote: (Post 330696)
Isn't the purpose of the wrist twist to lock the wrist up and take out the slack so you can use it to connect to the core (via the elbow then shoulder, etc), more or less? In which case uke making their wrist stiff does part of your work for you and you can just skip that step...?? Why would it make it harder?

Not sure if you're asking me, but here's my opinion just in case: That is more true of Nikka jo/Nikyo, but regardless, don't skip any steps. I believe Kote Gaeshi is translated as more of a "forearm return" than a wrist twist, if a concept is helpful to you.

No matter what he does, commit to the completion of the technique. If uke tenses his arm and wrist, that usually means he is going to sit down and roll, instead of taking the full breakfall. IMO, that's a good way to practice it because it's probably going to turn out that way more often (with non-ukes).

Adam Huss 10-16-2013 09:46 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Bill Danosky wrote: (Post 330687)
Yeah, that can happen. We typically use two atemis in Kote Gaeshi- One on the entry and one after the turn (whether it's a pivot or body change). I believe the rationale is that most people are going to recoil from a strong strike to the face, which begins the kuzushi. Another reason may be that it gives them something to think about while you are getting your wristlock firmed up.

Bill,

I am a little confused about your description of dual atemi in kotegaeshi. I have two questions for you; which kotegaeshi variations are you using two atemi (please just list them via your dojo terminology), and do all your kotegeashi #2 involve an atemi before pivoting?

Thanks!

Adam

Adam Huss 10-16-2013 09:55 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 330673)
Do you atemi or something else to "break his intent" before you try to lead him off balance?

Because I think sometimes atemi puts uke back on balance.

I feel like if you hit someone in the face with your atemi they will probably not be put back in balance, rather that can create a 'suki' or gap in their balance that can create an opportunity for nage to exploit and safely make their first movement. Granted we don't want to hit someone in the face so stoutly they move too much. When they, hopefully, block I like to drive my atemi into the block to start taking them off balance. I always atemi for the face/eyes because it obfuscates uke's vision and, when they block, you can drive your hand into their blocking hand...thus pushing his head/shoulder girdle area behind his hips. This is also why I always telegraph my atemi...which gets uke thinking about that atemi vice what you are really trying to play with.

But I agree that atemi can disrupt the flow of a technique if applied incorrectly, effectively putting uke back in balance. I feel like atemi is often overlooked in teaching and students just apply it a la 'monkey see monkey do' without understanding the how and why of its mechanics.

Bill Danosky 10-16-2013 10:04 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
I will have to think about whether this is an all-inclusive rule. I'll stipulate to an exception, since there is always at least one. But yes, we almost always use two atemis in Kote Gaeshi. When we intercept an attack*, we backfist to the face (I prefer the pie-in-the-face, personally), then again right before we execute the throw. This keeps a hostile uke from punching us after the return, or pivot. Also, it gives us a moment to make sure we have the kote.

*For most ichi techniques, Shite initiates with an atemi.

Adam Huss 10-16-2013 10:07 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Basia Halliop wrote: (Post 330696)
Isn't the purpose of the wrist twist to lock the wrist up and take out the slack so you can use it to connect to the core (via the elbow then shoulder, etc), more or less? In which case uke making their wrist stiff does part of your work for you and you can just skip that step...?? Why would it make it harder?

Not everyone applies kotegaishi in this manner. Some practitioners treat it more in a manner which I would call kokyunage, where they are drawing uke's wrist away from their center, then about/above shoulder height, then out away and down. Hard to explain, and rough to fall from.

Generally I apply wrist manipulations in the manner you are talking about (vice pain compliance). A good training tool is having your uke stand, make a fist, stand statically, and hold their arm solidly as you try to apply kotegaeshi. You probably won't be able to get everyone in your dojo, but its good training and helps understand how the actual technique works. This is interesting practice because you will (or should) meet much resistance and failure while expending a lot of effort. When playing around with your micro-adjustments, you will happen upon the 'sweet spot' (to borrow a term from the nikkyo thread) and uke will drop unexpectedly, quickly, and effortlessly.

Adam Huss 10-16-2013 10:22 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Bill Danosky wrote: (Post 330997)
I will have to think about whether this is an all-inclusive rule. I'll stipulate to an exception, since there is always at least one. But yes, we almost always use two atemis in Kote Gaeshi. When we intercept an attack*, we backfist to the face (I prefer the pie-in-the-face, personally), then again right before we execute the throw. This keeps a hostile uke from punching us after the return, or pivot. Also, it gives us a moment to make sure we have the kote.

*For most ichi techniques, Shite initiates with an atemi.

Got it, you are counting shomenuchi dai ichi as an atemi.

Quick question before we get too 'in the weeds.' For (kihon waza) Shomenuchi Kotegaeshi dai ni, are you initiating with a front strike to uke before your pivot shift, or are you pivoting and blending with uke's strike as you make your initial pivot shift? I just looked at some clips online and I'm seeing some variances. The second part of the technique all looks congruent; the slide out, pivot, atemi, pivot, throw...I just mean the first part (of #2).

Thanks again!

Cliff Judge 10-16-2013 10:37 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Adam Huss wrote: (Post 330996)
I feel like if you hit someone in the face with your atemi they will probably not be put back in balance, rather that can create a 'suki' or gap in their balance that can create an opportunity for nage to exploit and safely make their first movement. Granted we don't want to hit someone in the face so stoutly they move too much. When they, hopefully, block I like to drive my atemi into the block to start taking them off balance. I always atemi for the face/eyes because it obfuscates uke's vision and, when they block, you can drive your hand into their blocking hand...thus pushing his head/shoulder girdle area behind his hips. This is also why I always telegraph my atemi...which gets uke thinking about that atemi vice what you are really trying to play with.

But I agree that atemi can disrupt the flow of a technique if applied incorrectly, effectively putting uke back in balance. I feel like atemi is often overlooked in teaching and students just apply it a la 'monkey see monkey do' without understanding the how and why of its mechanics.

See my point is, if you are applying a kuzushi such that their heads are going BACK, then that's not appropriate for a technique where you need their weight to go forward, such as an ura/tenkan kotegaeshi.

Bill Danosky 10-16-2013 11:02 AM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Adam Huss wrote: (Post 331000)
Got it, you are counting shomenuchi dai ichi as an atemi.

Quick question before we get too 'in the weeds.' For (kihon waza) Shomenuchi Kotegaeshi dai ni, are you initiating with a front strike to uke before your pivot shift, or are you pivoting and blending with uke's strike as you make your initial pivot shift? I just looked at some clips online and I'm seeing some variances. The second part of the technique all looks congruent; the slide out, pivot, atemi, pivot, throw...I just mean the first part (of #2).

Thanks again!

For Shomenuchi ni (where uke initiates), we use both hands to intecept, so we have to forego that strike. The upper hand tegatanas the shomenuchi and the bottom hand catches the elbow. Then (for kotegaeshi ni) we pivot, bring uke around, reverse direction (another pivot) and strike, then cut the kotegaeshi down/through as we do the final pivot.

If it were Yokomenuchi ni, for instance, we'd intercept with one hand and atemi with the other, then proceed.

Basia Halliop 10-16-2013 02:19 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Adam Huss wrote: (Post 330998)
Not everyone applies kotegaishi in this manner. Some practitioners treat it more in a manner which I would call kokyunage, where they are drawing uke's wrist away from their center, then about/above shoulder height, then out away and down. Hard to explain, and rough to fall from.

To me this still sounds like what I said, using the hand to move the body, via the other joints in the arm. It doesn't sound like it should be hampered by a stiff wrist. ?

I sprained my thumb once and spent a month or so in a wrist splint, and a lot of people had no trouble doing kotegaeshi on me - more than one different kind of kotegaeshi, with some requiring big breakfalls and others going more straight down. As long as they were trying to move me and not just make me go 'ow', it worked fine.

Bill Danosky 10-16-2013 02:50 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 331002)
See my point is, if you are applying a kuzushi such that their heads are going BACK, then that's not appropriate for a technique where you need their weight to go forward, such as an ura/tenkan kotegaeshi.

In Judo, we often initiate the reverse of our intention. Most opponents will oppose, and there you go.

Adam Huss 10-16-2013 03:04 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Bill Danosky wrote: (Post 331019)
In Judo, we often initiate the reverse of our intention. Most opponents will oppose, and there you go.

Right, you get someone to go back, they often naturally rock forward. IE driving in for kosoto gari and as he rocks back forward to regain balance slip into tomoe nage...or some such nonsense like that.

Adam Huss 10-16-2013 03:06 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Bill Danosky wrote: (Post 331004)
For Shomenuchi ni (where uke initiates), we use both hands to intecept, so we have to forego that strike. The upper hand tegatanas the shomenuchi and the bottom hand catches the elbow. Then (for kotegaeshi ni) we pivot, bring uke around, reverse direction (another pivot) and strike, then cut the kotegaeshi down/through as we do the final pivot.

If it were Yokomenuchi ni, for instance, we'd intercept with one hand and atemi with the other, then proceed.

Ok, that's the way I was taught but I was watching some clips of Takeno Sensei and it seemed like he was initiating dai ni with shomenuchi. Basically I couldn't tell if it was uke or nage initiating the first movement. That being said, it was an instructional video that was filmed at very slow, film-study, speed.

Bill Danosky 10-16-2013 04:05 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Quote:

Adam Huss wrote: (Post 331022)
Ok, that's the way I was taught but I was watching some clips of Takeno Sensei and it seemed like he was initiating dai ni with shomenuchi. Basically I couldn't tell if it was uke or nage initiating the first movement. That being said, it was an instructional video that was filmed at very slow, film-study, speed.

I haven't seen the film, but if it was Takeno Sensei, he will very likely have uke initiating a ni technique. But honestly, I think it's just a training protocol, so we look like we know what we're doing in a demo. If you are Yoshinkan, too, you know we ALWAYS do things a certain way, except when it's different.

heathererandolph 10-20-2013 12:03 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
It's probably best not to practice technique outside the dojo on friends, unless they are receptive and you are fairly advanced. They may not be prepared, might not know when to slap out, may not know how to get out of a hold or lock, and aren't dressed for taking falls or on a soft surfaced floor. If you do want to show friends, I suggest just showing them the power but not doing it hard. You can hurt someone!
As far as for effectiveness, you're losing the element of timing since they never attacked you I'm assuming. If I was going to show an outsider something, I'd probably show them the Sankyo position and let them tighten it up if they want to.

Riai Maori 02-09-2014 07:57 PM

Re: Kotegaeshi, help please
 
Taught to military and police for close combat. Grab the wrist and lower to your belly button, roll your hand over the other persons hand so their index finger touches their wrist. Watch them drop to there knees instantly. The more pressure you apply the lower your subject becomes.This technique is easy to learn, apply and very effective on all size persons strong or week. No need to unbalance or Atemi which wastes time anyway. Just my opinion.


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