Best karate style for aikido?
I'm wondering if any of you with karate experience might want to share your opinions on cross-training in karate and aikido. There are a few other threads dealing with this, but none that I found with my specific question....
I started training in aikido (aikikai) about 8 years ago. Loved it right away, was always pretty sure I would stick with it indefinitely after starting. About a year ago I had to relocate to a small town with no aikido dojo. The only budo practice to be found were two karate dojo, one shotokan and the other shito-ryu. Having little to no knowledge of karate, I picked the shotokan one since it was about a block away from my apartment, and had two practices a week versus a single one for the other dojo (yeah, just like that). I tried to keep an open mind and thought "at worst, maybe my attacks as uke in aikido might improve". Right away, I LOVED it. I thought, man, "have I been doing the wrong thing all along?". I decided that when I went back to aikido, I would try to keep doing karate. Now I'm back in a larger city (Ottawa) where I've started taking aikido again (this time Yoshinkan, which is another story altogether). The same location where I'm training in aikido also has a shotokan dojo, so I thought, perfect, I'll try to balance the two. The thing is, I'm now starting to find certain aspects of shotokan more and more difficult to follow. I'm OK with the lower stance, the little to no grappling, the shorter (and sometimes longer) distances, and the kicking, well, to be honest, that's the most fun :) What I'm having a bit of difficulty accepting is the extreme linearity of it. This may be due to my beginner level, but at my other karate dojo there seemed to be more tai sabaki, which I felt complemented, rather, than clashed, with my aikido training. I've realised that the shihan overseeing that dojo also had a Chito-ryu background, and from what I understand, that style may place a larger emphasis on avoiding attacks (rather than meeting them with force) than other karate styles. I've begun to wonder if what I originally thought was straight shotokan was a mixture of these two styles (which no-one ever alluded to). Or perhaps it was simply a different curriculum within the same style.... Do you have any thoughts on which (if any) karate styles might harmonize with the circularity, for lack of a better word, of aikido, the best? Thanks in advance for any and all of your input, Tom |
Re: Best karate style for aikido?
off the top of my head, i would say: shorinryu, isshinryu and gojuryu although many of the gojuryu schools seemed to be more go than ju. :) the current shotokan tends to be rather linear with lots of muscle power. they missed much of the teaching from Funakoshi.
personally, if you find a systema school near by, i would go with that. but then their training methodology might messing with your yoshinkan aikido and that's a good thing. :D |
Re: Best karate style for aikido?
Tom,
After years of Goju ryu, I went to Aikido a few years ago to add some Ju to the whole lot of Go I had. I find the 2 compliment each other and a lot of similarities in how power is generated, taisabaki, atemi waza, even kuzushi waza. That said, I think you would most likely get the same from any other karate system. I would recommend an Okinawan based system however. Regards, Stu |
Re: Best karate style for aikido?
I found it particularly hard to let go of Kyokushin, which I had trained in for quite a number of years, when starting Aikido. Probably the subtle difference in shuto and the likes, but more likely learning not to aggressively attack any and every opening.
That said, I found that there were a large number of similarities and it complemented my understanding of Kyokushin over time. All in all, I would suggest its a worthwhile cross-training style, but caveat that by sayings its always a challenge to climb to mountains at once ;) |
Re: Best karate style for aikido?
I don't think it ought to matter, to be honest. Just pick a karate dojo that is a good representative of its style and a style that is a good representation of karate -- not a style and school that's aikido with kicks and punches. Karate is karate and aikido is aikido, and if you need the two to be as much like each other as possible in order to train in both, then maybe you should reconsider whether you should do both. I also think it's totally barking up the wrong tree to try to figure out which approach is "doing it right". They're two different paths up the same mountain, and if you want to look at it a certain way, each one is going to be missing some things that you encounter on the other path.
I trained in karate (shotokan) before I trained in aikido, and I switched to aikido for the sole and simple reason that I moved and aikido was all there was. There were many things in aikido that didn't make sense to me for quite a while -- things where I thought that the karate solution to the problem made more sense. The aikido way makes sense to me now, but that doesn't mean that the karate way doesn't make sense -- it's not an either-or thing. Each approach has its tradeoffs. If you can understand that, I think you can benefit tremendously from training in two martial arts (under some circumstances -- a lot of other things have to fall into place too). If you're constantly trying to make one into the other or figure out which is better, IMO you're wasting your time. A lot of people favor this approach because it sounds like taking the best from both worlds, but it isn't. It's constantly cherrypicking, never integrating, always criticizing, always looking for the fly in the ointment instead of accepting things as they are in the hope of coming to an understanding through practice. It's a waste of time. |
Re: Best karate style for aikido?
If you have not seen dvd's or trained with Ushiro Sensei of Shindoryu, then you should. His utilization of Ki in his karate is unlike anybody else out there. It is simply to best compliment to help your Aikido.
Marc Abrams pm me if you want the particulars on how to train with him or get his books or dvd's |
Re: Best karate style for aikido?
I don't know if you have this style around, but you may want to check out aikijitsu/aikijutsu/aikijujitsu (and many more variations to spell it). I trained in that before doing aikido and I have been able to carry over some stuff. My teacher didn't focus too much on the aikido aspect, so that is new to me, but other teachers in the style do a lot of aikido. There are lots of joint locks and fun throws in the style along with lots of fun weapons. :) It will help a lot with your ukemi and it isn't a "hard" style. Well... it CAN be, but it isn't for the most part.
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?
I think it is less about the style of Karate and more about the teacher. If the teacher is teaching correctly and understands principles of movment etc...then that is who you study with.
These days I am less about style of ANYTHING and more about the quality of the individual. If I had a choice, I'd follow Marc Abrams advice and check out Ushiro Sensei. Also I think alot of the Uechi Ryu traiinng (Okinawa) stuff is good IF you have a good teacher. Unfortunately alot of Karate/TKD is "McDojo" and IMO for your money is a waste of time. Save it, go to some decent seminars with some good instructors. |
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?
I agree with Sean about Kyokushin Karate. I started training Kyokushin Karate and had been training for a few years when I found Aikido. I trained both for eight years and found them very complimentary to each other. Kyokushin was not linear and was a circle & point style of Karate - okinawan based.
I would still be training both but a foot injury forced me to give up Karate, but it still resonates in my Aikido Training and life even now. I must also say that the statement that Aikido is Akido and Karate is Karate is not what I understand either to be. There are so many different representaions of Martial Arts and Schools that call themselves Karate and are really Tai Kwan Do etc You need to find the style that is right for you and it is possible to successfully train two Martial Arts and thrive from both. |
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?
Hi ya Tomas! :0)
I'm going to recommend something that is very hard to find. The old name was Nippon Kempo Shinpuren. :0) Soft style, circular movements, they play the angles, and are very very difficult to handle in a fight. I trained is shotokan for four years and had never really lost a fight before I had my head handed to me by one of these guys...:0) Cheers Peter |
Re: Best karate style for aikido?
kempo has a lot of circularity. Hapkido as well-daitoryu with kicks.
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You might also want to look into Wado Ryu. As the founder of the style was also a licensed teacher of Shindō Yōshin-ryū Jujutsu, I believe they tend to be much more circular than most Karate styles. Furthermore Wado can also be translated as the way of harmony.
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Re: Best karate style for aikido?
I'm not sure which style of karate he's a high degree black belt in, but I've met a guy who is high ranking in Aikido as well. I was talking a while ago about gut instinct, and mind says he's certainly extra prepared in a street fight scenario. As far as whether karate enhances Aikido (notice I only capitalize the art I do) ;-) , I think it does, mainly when it comes to atemi and high-ranking kick attacks as uke. There is another man I trained with many times at my original dojo in Tallahassee. He's a black belt in Tae Kwon Do (Korean karate), and if he really finds himself in a jam, I've seen a really high kick fly! I feel a little like a hypocrite here, since Aikido is the only MA I've studied, when I know most of the others can certainly make good combos.
Drew |
Re: Best karate style for aikido?
First of all, thanks to everyone for all your comments. At the very least, you've helped me realize that I'm going about this the wrong way. If I keep trying to make my karate training "fit" my aikido training, then maybe that means I should just focus on aikido...
In the meantime I will give my current shotokan school more time with (hopefully) less or no "aikido bias". I will update with any findings sometime in the future. Tom |
Re: Best karate style for aikido?
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Secondly, most karate is taught in a very linear manner (even "Okinawan" styles). This is a hangover from when it was modified to be taught in Okinawan schools back before the First World War, and dozens of students only had room to march up and down the dojo in straight lines. It is also one of the great weaknesses of karate as it is now taught. OTOH, most styles will teach you to strike and punch properly, which is the great weakness of most aikido people. And not just from a self-defence POV - better strikes give your partners a better practice. But, as always, the instructor is more important than the style, or even the art. |
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[quote=Drew Gardner;234549He's a black belt in Tae Kwon Do (Korean karate), and if he really finds himself in a jam, I've seen a really high kick fly!
[/QUOTE] That's actually not a very effective technique when you're "in a jam" :-) Not many of us are fast enough to move a foot the 6+ feet it will take to connect with an opponents head without them having plenty of time to get out of the way, or worse, grab hold of your leg. That's not a very comfortable position in which to find yourself :-) |
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Mary, I agree saying that isn't PC or even an accurate thing to call Tae Kwon Do, which is certainly its own art. I actually sensed pain in myself when I typed that, not because it wasn't PC, but because I knew the wrath from other members was imminent. Should there be national pride from one art to the next? Should there be national pride? Hey, I'm glad I popped out in the States, but it could have been Greenland.
Jim, I've seen a Tae Kwon Do kick and a "Japanese karate" ;-) kick (happened to be basically the same kick) launch a foot at 3.0 x 10^8 m/s. Drew |
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