Re: Non-Aikido thoughts and considerations
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Re: Non-Aikido thoughts and considerations
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Re: Non-Aikido thoughts and considerations
LOL Yeah I kinda thought someone would chime in with that ;). It's fair to say that my Aikido isn't heavily weapons based but I feel quite comfortable doing Aikido type things right handed way more than I do if I switch to left handed in terms of bokken - jo is irrelevant, feels fine either side. So my point was, even if you're left handed then if you train predominantly right handed with a bokken (kinda normal I think) then you don't have any disadvantage over a righty training right handed.
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Re: Non-Aikido thoughts and considerations
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Takeda was interesting guy beyond all doubt. Supposedly illiterate. Refused to be called Soke Refused to be called Menkyo Never called himself a shihan His son stated that both he and his father had no rank Did very unusual martial arts Handed out an ever growing assortment of makimono (that came from where?) Taught different things to different groups, instead a fixed set of kata (unlike established koryu) Then, added ranks and awarded them in an art he said...was not his. Many ancient densho survive. We have not found nor ever heard of a single one for this "Daito" ryu from Aizu. I think that the Japanese had trouble saying look at me I am a genius (even when they are).Or look what I created! So instead we hear stories of God handing out scrolls, Tengu giving whole systems, mountain tengu teaching systems..and guys being "General affairs director" of an art with oshiki-uchi, Or sons stating that their dads studied an array of Koryu arts and blended them together to make aikido. Internet bloggers would have had a field day with some of these guys were they alive today. Dan |
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Doesn't it take a Soke to pass on an art? Sokaku was not the soke by his own admission. The only Soke of anything was Tokimune; who invented Daito ryu Aiki budo and called himself soke of that. He himself differentiates in some detail that the two arts are not the same He awarded everyone (Kondo included) ranks in Aikibudo. Then he dies and somewhere in between awards Kondo Menkyo in Daito ryu aikijujutsu A menkyo award is stuffed out of place in between detailed and dated entries in the eimoroku after Tokimunes death (everyone is told Tokimune knew people would feel bad so he hid this award. Then Kondo forbids his seniors in the art of Aikibudo use of the name Daito ryu. 1. So who is or was Soke of what? Aikibudo or Aikijujutsu 2. Who is or was Menkyo in what? Aikibudo or Aikijujutsu Or AIkiudo and Aikijujutsu Where are those concurrent awarded ranks? If one is Menkyo in Aikijujustsu, how does it apply any authority to aikibudo? An art your own teacher states had a different curriculum. Even weirder, people trained for 35 yrs...become the reps, become president and treasurer of the organization and give embu all over Japan in front of and for Tokimune and all is well. Then a part timer shows up with a lot of money...everyone is told he got the real art. They are told.."Naw...I never taught you..I lied to your face." by their teacher. Have a nice life! Realize of course that all of this has been...er...explained in detail as well and tokimune told people he only taught Kondo. ;) He dies, a menkyo is awarded, recorded, what have you, the art is trademarked against others using it...and the former president, and treasurer, and senior students are out and prevented from using the name of the art they were ranked in and presented to Japan for most of their adult lives, Now you have threats of legal action! Potential law suits in traditional budo? Thank goodness this isn't the old days, I'm surprised no one has gotten violent. Then again who do you go after...teacher, or student? All of this has been explained you understand. all neat and tidy like. I've read and re read all of the stuff for years and talked with teachers and various insiders and authors. The only thing consistent about the art is how inconsistent it is, how it is traditionally so untraditional. Start to finish, a damn curious and weird Japanese art. Anyone blame Ueshiba for running for the hills? Dan |
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I wonder if the whole mess with the legal wrangling and public expulsions is just the omote, and in private these people are all still great friends. I have been told that Sugawara Sensei gets a new year's card from Otake Sensei every year. :) |
Re: Non-Aikido thoughts and considerations
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Just for the sake of controversy.:eek: Any thoughts / comments on this Video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ts1IXW8Zgro According to the text going with it, Tokimune would have stated otherwise himself. - ? - I don't speak Japanese , so I don't have a clue about what is actually beeing said,& if the text is accurate & a faithfull transcript. Care to comment ? Cheers, Sacha |
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What is there to comment on. It's part of the record of what I was talking about. Cheers Dan |
Re: Non-Aikido thoughts and considerations
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Sorry I was tied up with something. I am aware not only of this video but how it arrived into public view and changed the opinion of one of Kondos detractors. It blew the seshinkans earlier comments out of the water, but it left a lot of curious stuff still on the table. Kondo's Menkyo (date of issue) was back dated (according to Stan) into the eimoroku. The reason was suggested that it was going to upset people. Did you think I was saying Kondo was not menkyo? I was commenting on the very weird way (after his death) that all of this went down for Tokimune's students and his family. Being awarded menkyo is usually a process, a celebration and your mates get to see you progress and in general everyone knows. It's the soke of what? That is a curiosity to me, and who was awarded ranks in what of two different arts. I thought it curious (and Stan didn't have an answer either) that Tokimune made it clear that he was soke of the art he created Daito ryu aiki budo which he clearly differentiates from Daito ryu aiki-jujutsu Then he awarded ranks in both, but a menkyo in one.. Since Takeda S. did not call himself soke, how did Takeda T. become soke of Sokaku's art. Wouldn't he be the latest er...general affairs director as well? Every art can do what ever the heck it wants. We have many precedents for arts that are koryu (or act like koryu). For the most part they are pretty straight forward. All of this was placed in the public eye by its own students, and played out there, so it came to everyone's attention. As such, the whole thing was very curious. An art with no history has an extremely capable head, who claims it is an eight or nine hundred year old Koryu. Then he himself does not act in accordance with the norms of much of what that means, and as well invents, (discovers?) added scrolls as time goes on? Then the Son has rather odd transmission issues as well. We can say that a common theory is that Sokaku did indeed invent the art, but that opens another can of worms no one wants to touch. This has been done to death. Every once in a while the weirdness of it all pops up, that's all, Cheers Dan |
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If it was a kanji issue-- did something change since then? And if there is no legitimate "alternate reading" explanation, then this seems to be a bit of anecdotal evidence for Takeda not being able to read. Though by now, we have covered that it is possible and likely for traditional info to have been received by Takeda through oral means, so the point I guess is....... happy Friday everyone! |
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Many thanks for the response. Are you familiar with Takeda Tokimune's account of the origin of the art, including the name? The account appears on p. 42 of Stanley Pranin's Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu interviews. The Japanese text appears on p. 272-273 of Mr Pranin's 『武田惣角と大東流合気柔術』. Tokimune states that Daitou 大東 is the name of a place in Oshu 奥州, northeastern Japan, where Shinra Saburo Minamoto no Yoshimitsu stayed when he studied human anatomy. Saburo was a descendant of the Emperor Seiwa (850-881) and dissected corpses. He called himself Daito no Saburo 大東の三郎. Katsuyuki Kondo also mentions Shinra Saburo in his interview (Pranin, p. 154; pp. 133-134 of his Japanese edition.) The problem is that Tokimune had a similar position in respect of Takeda Sokaku as Kisshomaru Ueshiba had in respect of Ueshiba Morihei. The difference is that Tokimune places Sokaku (and himself) firmly in a line beginning with the Emperor Seiwa, whereas Kisshomaru places great emphasis on Ueshiba as the start of a new line. In both cases, there is, shall we say, a certain looseness in the treatment of the historical evidence. Best wishes, PAG |
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Were they modern Americans writing their stories- here or any where else on the internet- they would be thoroughly eviscerated for it and their art would be placed in the Bad budo or bullshido sections of various forums all over the world for the stories they tried to pass off. I continue to be amazed at what Westerners will put up with. Their polite and neutral responses, are meant to tell people how "they need to understand", all in the guise of representing a sophisticated and nuanced understanding of what often amounts to as ...total bullshit. As if looking these guys in the eye and calling them on it makes you some sort of simpleton. We can certainly understand it contextually, we do not "need" to accept it or approve. Truth and lies as being a fluid concept starts to take on a cowardly artifice that we would never tolerate elsewhere. We didn't include certain individuals one step down either. A model cited by Stan in his first paragaph of certain shihans claims, one example being: "I trained with O Sensei everyday, privately." (years after he retired and left). It never happened. They are just well placed, well loved and very well thought of...liars. I am so glad I left certain relationships in a particular art. At a certain point in time I consider the Westerners who have compromised themselves in order to TO REMAIN a part, and be ranked as worse than the Asians who do these things. I have no use for what they chose to represent. Dan |
Re: Non-Aikido thoughts and considerations
For the private emails shocked at my insensitivity!!!
I am not talking about interpersonal relationships within a culture. I was referring to histories made up out of whole cloth. Dan |
Re: Non-Aikido thoughts and considerations
Oh boy now that's more like it!:eek: Excited. :D
I have heard the stories about the "daito mansion." The question of its truth is of course the main issue with that... but besides that, it confuses the yamato-vs-daito issue even more. The pronounciation of 大東 within that "legend" is presumably straightforward. If Sokaku Takeda had exposure to that purported history, there is double reason that he would have been saying "daito" instead of "yamato." (Reason 1 is "yamato" has its own kanji unrelated to 大東, reason 2 would be that 大東 refers to some kind of true history that people knew about and were talking about). So instead, we are left with a legend that was made up/tied to the art after Takeda started teaching, and again, a strange kanji mixup. Maybe in the absence of any real history, there was no name and no kanji at all for the art, and he was just calling it Yamato ryu. Later there came along some good reason(s) to just shift the name to Daito. |
Re: Non-Aikido thoughts and considerations
I can say that o'sensei was not the only one that had such amazing power. I practiced with Chien man Cheng in Tainan, Taiwan, before I met o'sensei. Who had the most power? Is it easier to push over the empire state building, or the washinton momument?
I don't know, but I do know that o'sensei was not a 'one in a billion', others have reached a similar level, or at least, close to it. That tai chi guy from the 'people's park' in Beijing, right now, seems to have such power. Humans can develop it, believe me. |
Re: Non-Aikido thoughts and considerations
People seem to be asking, 'what did o'sensei add to daito aikijujitsu, to make it aikido?
The answer is Tai no henko. O'sensei added that, essentially invented it. This never existed in the old style aikijitsu, if they use it now, its because they stole it from aikido. O'sensei was fond of saying that every single technique in aikido uses tai no henko, or, at least its essential action, the circular turn. I also believe that he 100% took this move from Japanese sword styles, not chinese styles, as some have suggested. |
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What's your reason for thinking that it didn't exist in Daito-ryu? I don't he think he took anything from from Chinese styles either - or rather I think that the Chinese training paradigm entered Japan from China a long time before Ueshiba and that the received the Chinese paradigm from Japanese sources. Best, Chris |
Re: Non-Aikido thoughts and considerations
I also worked out with Sato, doshu of a branch of aikijitsu, I'm just repeating his view.
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Love to hear more about him though... Best, Chris |
Re: Non-Aikido thoughts and considerations
Sorry, jumping in late here, but I recently noticed something some will find - perhaps - a little amusing, given the discussion about names of Daito-ryu and who made aikido and all of that.
In a recent post by Stan Pranin over at Aikido Journal (sorry, don't have the link), he wrote that O-sensei rarely called what he did "aikido." Rather, he generally referred to it as "aiki." ;) |
Re: Non-Aikido thoughts and considerations
Its all too simple for me. I accept the change in my Aikido every time I enter the Dojo. Its my Universe and I hold it in the palm of my hand at every moment. Aiki is not for one person nor is it for all people. Aiki is for you. You have nothing more to do but enhance and express.
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jujutsu / yawara
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The late Zen teacher Taisen Deshimaru Roshi studied yawara and has written encouraging words on aikido. |
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Just different general terms for Japanese empty handed fighting. Strictly speaking, Aikido can be called a form of jujutsu or yawara. Best, Chris |
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