Re: Equitable?
I think Tai Chi and Aikido have an apeal to new agers because there is a mystical element within them. That's to say that there appears to be a power at work that's beyond the exertion of normal human strength.
I'm intrigued by this, too, but I explain that there is at least a solid working theory of physics behind every technique. Tenkan exploits the power of centrifugal force, for instance. |
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Regards, Mike |
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-LK |
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The very essences of tenkan, extension, kokyu movement and...well..lots :) |
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Mike |
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Mike |
Re: Equitable?
Centrifugal force is the inertial force specific to rotation. It's a subset, not an alternative.
-LK |
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American Heritage Dictionary, third edition This may not be "properly speaking" but it is not incorrect, and it is a long way from HonkiDonk. Yours, Brion Toss |
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Regards, Mike Sigman |
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:D
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Re: Tenkan and Centrifugal Force
I would be extremely interested in hearing the opinion of someone who said that centrifugal/petal 'force' (heh) didn't exist.
Unless it was a troll, of course...they would say just anything to argue. |
Re: Tenkan and Centrifugal Force
I firmly believe that centripetal and centrifugal forces can and should be developed. I have done it myself for ages and am constantly amazed at how weak at technique some people are, even after years of training.
Centripetal force is that what develops when you enter tenkan and draw uke in - sure you use his initial movement, and then add some, and the more you CAN add the more powerful your technique becomes. Centrifugal force is that which is used to spit uke off. Likewise, the more you CAN add, the more powerful your technique becomes. You can, and should, develop this power. |
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This is not only the ability to utilise inertia in a circular fashion, but targeted application of force to manipulate the arcs, circles and spirals while keeping Uke off balance imho. LC:ai::ki: |
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FWIW Mike |
Re: Tenkan and Centrifugal Force
lol, the power of the internet.
couldn't find one with shite swinging uke around though... http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/cf.html And here's one mentioning the "apparent" centrifugal force: http://www.answers.com/topic/centripetal-force |
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centrifugal force (sen-trif-yuh-guhl, sen-trif-uh-guhl) A force that tends to move objects away from the center in a system undergoing circular motion. Centrifugal force keeps the water in a whirling bucket from spilling or throws a rider in a car against the door when the car goes around a sharp curve. Centrifugal force is actually a form of inertia. Frankly, I can't see where it's worth my time to argue something that anyone with a basic physics background would just shrug and smile at. There is no "centrifugal force"... what you feel is an object attempting to maintain it's straight-line direction (Newton's First Law, I believe) while you try to contain it in rotational movement. That is not a force that requires a special name, as people mistakenly did for a while.... that is inertia at work. Should we rigorously derive the equations so there's no question? Regards, Mike Sigman |
Re: Tenkan and Centrifugal Force
Not all tenkan is done just to match uke's body direction. There are numerous techniques that use tenkan as part of the take down or projection of uke during the application of the technique. The tight circular motion executed by nage forces part of uke's body to assume a path with a greater radius; the part of uke's body being held by nage will travel a path more in line with nage's vector. Uke is therefore forced to reconcile the conflict where his single body must assume more than one vector and velocity simultaneously. Since acceleration is a function of velocity and direction, uke's body is accelerated at different rates all at once. The result is he is taken off balance and thrown.
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FWIW Mike Sigman |
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FWIW Mike Sigman |
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A person not trained in classical mechanics will not try to understand aikido via force vector...Perhaps you are both saying the same thing, just using different words???
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Forces arise from the relative motions of bodies. Tenkan is not an application of force it is a contributing factor in the generation of force.
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There would be cause for a dojo to open up spruking mathematical martial arts! -> part technique, part applied physics... You would have people just lining up waiting for the doors to open!
It is interesting that although a lot of poeple here acknowledge the physics side of aikido, i dont think that anyone has ever tried to rigoursly define aikido from this perspective. Imagine if the Xtreme MA animators had specialised on aikido only? I beleive that alot of debate about aikido principles could be settled this way... On a side note, this XMA documentary (?) made a interesting remark concerning energy derived from the earth (or something along those lines)... they show via modelling that as the guy goes to strike his balance shifts creating an energy wave travelling up his leg and out his arm to his fist... i suppose more bang for you buck. I found this point extremly interesting from an aikido perspective! Got me thinking anyway! |
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quote" That's to say that there appears to be a power at work that's beyond the exertion of normal human strength." quote
I am still hung up on this, does this imply something extraordinary? Or just someone more talented than yourself? Can't it be stated, that those who possess talent beyond ourselves are are simply just talented? While being a lame analogy, wasn't Michael Jordan far beyond his peers, yet he possessed no special talents, i.e. no extraordinary talents? Rather as a basketball player, wasn't' he just gifted among his peers at that time? Just a though, Moses Jenkins |
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