Re: "resisting" a push part 2
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So when you redirect the push are you changing the angle at which the force is being applied to your arm? And can you do that while keeping your arm straight? I would do it by slightly bending my wrist and elbow. With the added benefit of coordinating mind and body (intent) I can reduce the amount of force reaching my shoulder to practically zero. I think of it as dissipating the force as opposed to redirecting it but I suppose both are at work to one degree or another. From what I have garnered reading Aikiweb posts, the "internal" folks claim that a sufficiently trained person is capable of resisting a full on front push to the chest in natural stance without displaying any outward movement whatsoever. I've never seen it done or fail to be done so I can't say yea or nay at this point. Assuming for the moment that the claims are true, how could you use alignment and structure to explain the feat? Ron |
Re: "resisting" a push part 2
So how come if you push a car, you don't align your bones? Elbows, knees, hips are all bent to some degree. Why is this the most efficient way? After all, pushing a car is just the reverse problem of being pushed by a car.
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2
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I've tried it several ways. Of late I've been working on a way to do it quite nicely with slightly bent arms. I believe that you are correct about 'internal' people making this claim. I have never seen this either. I have seen displays of alignment as I've shown in my video. I've also seen demonstrations of redirecting/dissipating/deflecting (whatever we want to call it). I've also seen a large number of novel tricks that can make it look like this is possible. But I've never seen video, or in person demonstration of someone standing square, not aligning and taking (relatively) large amounts of force. There's a lot of hearsay about such things. Until I've seen it, I can't and wouldn't try, to explain it. We've got to look at everything on a case by case basis. |
Re: "resisting" a push part 2
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The joints bend to help the muscles apply active force to the object we want to move. We bend our knees to extend our legs to move the car. In the receiving a push discussion we are talking mostly about passive resistance. In the car pushing example, we are talking about very active pushing. The muscles propel the car forward when we move the car. The muscles hold the alignment when we are receiving force. You are correct, similar, but slightly different. In either situation alignment helps greatly. |
Re: "resisting" a push part 2
I haven't found a video of push tests on an arm, but this one might be close enough.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLOGR...ailpage#t=141s I don't know much about this instructor, but the beginning of this fragment looks like push tests we do (to about 2:40). Uke is not pushing on the instructor's arm, but directly on his center, which probably makes it easier. Also, the instructor is obviously pushed on his heels at the start. He has to correct a bit and he might be leaning on uke later on, so there is room for improvement here. |
Re: "resisting" a push part 2
Well, I wouldn't say that he is receiving much of a push.
He is also ready to hook the guys elbow area. He didn't really latch on, but he also didn't receive much force. Any time you see them reaching out with their hands to make contact with the pusher, especially if they are hooking the arm or reaching under the pushing hands, there is a good chance they are bracing themselves by attaching to the pusher. It's kind of a trick, but depending on what you're looking at it's also kind of a legitimate technique. |
Re: "resisting" a push part 2
We do the push test without touching uke or keeping our hands near uke's elbow. And quite a few of Dan's students would do a lot better than what is shown in this video.
Then again, I don't want to be negative about this instructor. He seems to be demonstrating something else than just receiving a push. I just picked this video because this part looked similar to a push test we commonly do. |
Re: "resisting" a push part 2
You say there isn't much of a push in the video.
I don't know how well one can see how strong a push is. For example, there are several videos on YouTube about the Aunkai pushout exercise, which you have undoubtedly seen before. I've never studied Aunkai, so I'm not sure if the purpose of this exercise is actualy a push test, but assuming that is is to some extent, one could do this test with very little force or quite a lot of force. If you and you partner are balancing out, there are no visual cues to the amount of force being exerted. The only way to know for sure is by measuring, not by watching a video. My own body weight is 70 kgs (155 lbs). When I push a bathroom scale horizontally against a wall, I have to push hard to get to 20 kgs (45 lbs), about 30% of my body weight. The height of my horizontal push is 120 cm (4 ft) from the ground. I'm 178 cm tall (5'11"). I recently asked my wife to push the bathroom scale against my belly, and gently increase the pressure. (Getting my wife to do it gently is a challenge in itself ;)) I don't allow myself to cheat by leaning on my partner. My partner is allowed to suddenly and unexpectedly remove his/her force. If I lose my balance, I was cheating. My limit was 9 kgs (20 lbs), 12% of my body weight. The height of the push was about 105 cm (3'6") from the ground. I consider this a moderate push when I push the scale against the wall to the same amount. I might do a bit better if I practise more with my wife and the scale, but I think these number are a good indication of my current ability. I gave you my numbers so you can go ahead and demonstrate that you can withstand a stronger push than me using nothing but athleticism. I have no doubt that you'll succeed. I really don't think push tests should be like a weight lifting contest. I think it's for monitoring my own progress. Most important for me is that I'm a lot better now than when I started. (I haven't done such a test when I started so I have no numbers to support that, though.) Anyway, I'm still very low level. Is it too far fetched that I could increase my limit to 20 kgs (45 lbs) by training a few years more? |
Re: "resisting" a push part 2
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While all of these exercises make for impressive demonstrations their employment as training tools is where their real value lies. Ron |
Re: "resisting" a push part 2
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Ron may have gone a step further in his approach by relating to ki, as a good teaching tool in the way Tohei may have intended. But it appears to me, that the " hardcore internal" people in aikido apply ki more as a subset of applying intent and other things, so that ki alone isn't sufficient to do or explain the things that happen in the process of effective aiki(do) nor what they have in mind with this internal stuff. And a simple model for structure and using vectors may even be of lesser use to them. |
Re: "resisting" a push part 2
Frankly, I can't tell the difference between ki and intent, except intent is less woo so maybe more acceptable to people who have burned out on ki.
Ron, I think the points you're making about working with bent arms here, and earlier when you pointed out that Chris H's first block man diagram was best for resisting a push, are very deep. |
Re: "resisting" a push part 2
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2
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I think this above quote is also very good. And probably where many internal people are working. It's not so much that you can produce the most force, it's simply a litmus to see progress. Where I think the Aikido internal people have gone astray lately, is they are starting to believe that their is something very unique about the way 'internal' uses the body. I don't find this to be true. I do find that there are many unique methods of training in 'internal' that are quite useful for learning to organize your body. But the end result, whether you take the "traditional" internal path, or a modern athletic approach is much the same. |
Re: "resisting" a push part 2
You can find videos of pushout, or other exercises pushes by people trying their darnedest to push people over while standing with both feet parallel. Ark does his pinky throwing demo too with either the feet parallel or a very shallow stance. None the less, to make these things work, you can't rely on structure, nor can you push back. If you push back you fall over, if you lean, your opponent can let go and you fall forwards.
The challenge becomes, how do you get that power back into the other guy when exerting any power of your own makes you fail? I've laid out enough of the logic for the astute reader to figure out a couple of things which are required to do it properly. |
Re: "resisting" a push part 2
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How do you recreate the effects associated with internals without windup, big rotations, explosive power or better timing? Also you did say that had some challenges figuring out how to move the arm in the way I wrote about. Assuming that I'm not lying about moving that way :D , would you consider that being at least one possible way that movement is different? |
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That doesn't mean that everybody uses things the same way. Put a football player and a ballet dancer together and they'll move completely differently. There are things that one does that the other can't, not with a lot of conditioning and/or training. They're just different. Internals just use a different method of moving and conditioning. At some point, I suppose, you could say it's all "athletics" (which really hasn't been defined either), because everybody's using the same body, but that doesn't mean that someone training in "athletics" can get to the same place as someone using the other methods, or that they even understand the other methods. Since you, yourself, say that there are "many unique methods" in internals, what's the point here? Best, Chris |
Re: "resisting" a push part 2
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I have no difficulty raising my arm without tensing my trapezius. I believe that is what you were showing as poor movement in your video, and I agree with that. |
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That is the distinction I am making. The end result, and the way to people achieve it- internal or athlete will be the same. Athletics is the word I use to describe western studies of body use. These are mostly oriented around sports, but have much application beyond that. These studies are just as sophisticated- if not more so, then traditional Chinese methods. The real reason for all of this is to help people realize that when you study Aikido, you are simply using your body efficiently. Understanding how the body works is available to all. You don't have to see a special teacher, or believe a special faith, your local football coach has a pretty good idea about proper body use. What is unique about internal is the way they teach these things, but not the end result they produce. |
Re: "resisting" a push part 2
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Re: "resisting" a push part 2
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I haven't seen anybody, physically talented or not, figure this out in a conventional way. OTOH, there are a number of people around teaching who have figured it out the "regular" way. Best, Chris |
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Here is a short and non-comphrehensive list of IS skills getting under without physically dropping unbalancing on physical contact (doesn't require a strike, windup etc) lack of feedback on contact or when waza is performed able to generate power from very weak positions without the benefit of structural alignment |
Re: "resisting" a push part 2
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But…frankly, if you could make this distinction, may be, that would a big leap forward for you, don't you think? Quote:
Best, Bernd |
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I'm sure if we keep examining things, we'll find out, at least in the realms of body movement, 'internal' people aren't doing anything significantly different than athletes would, given the same task (lifting, pulling, pushing, hitting, moving). |
Re: "resisting" a push part 2
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Well, good luck with that.;) Best, Chris |
Re: "resisting" a push part 2
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How do you explain his comparatively high success rate at higher age, or the fact that early aikidoka often got better despite them growing older, in view of the fact that normal athletes for the most part often have to retire relatively early in their lives? |
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